Red Mosquito

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

that is a great picture.

Lament wrote:stip, how do you feel when Ed sings "Sometimes I cringe"?

I didn't hate that word until rm

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:I am certainly not saying there is a problem with self inquiry. Lament probably isn't either. I just think off he goes is a somewhat hamfisted and narcissistic way to do it.

Yeah, I have no problem with self inquiry. I don't even necessarily have a problem with moments and bursts of narcissism. A few pages back I posted as much...

Lament wrote:There are a lot of songs I genuinely love that have absurdly narcissistic moments in them. There are times when it's appropriate and works very well. I'm with stip in that I think the narcissism in this song is over-the-top and a bit too much for me to take, but the presence of narcissism in itself isn't something that I consider to be a necessarily bad thing. It's just the way in which it's done here. It's too much of the main point of the song to me.

Any time you find yourself agreeing with stip, you know you took a wrong turn somewhere.

Off He Goes is reflective self-criticism. He turns himself into a caricature, and imbues the unnamed observer with more insight and awareness than he allows himself. The friend is the one who can see clearly...he's just a silhouette of self importance and reservation.

Not only that, but you're misreading key lines. "It's like his thoughts are too big for his size," for example, is not about heavy wisdom but about thinking you are capable of knowing and doing more than others...more than an individual ever could do. It's a statement about arrogance, put in the most gently shaded and polite way a friend would ever say it...and that is what is appropriate for the song.

Present Tense does all of the things that I hold against Off He Goes for not doing.

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

that is a great picture.

I need to leave this thread for a bit cuz I keep laughing at it and it is keeping my wife up

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

photoshop that onto a boat and you have the real pirates of the Caribbean.

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

that is a great picture.

It looks like Mick Jagger's penis can play guitar. Or IS a guitar.

ABNorman wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

that is a great picture.

It looks like Mick Jagger's penis can play guitar. Or IS a guitar.

Looks like?

McParadigm wrote:

ABNorman wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:I mean, if you're gonna be ridiculous, you can do it a hell of a lot better than to sit in a shitty little boat eating a sub.

that is a great picture.

It looks like Mick Jagger's penis can play guitar. Or IS a guitar.

Looks like?

Either way, he's enjoying it.

Where in Off He Goes does he turn himself into a caricature? Because a whole lot of the argument in favor of Off He Goes seems to be based around how vivid and real the character in the song is to a lot of people on this board. I'm not sure what's over-the-top or distorted about the description in the song.

I don't buy the idea that this is self-critical either. It's self-sympathetic. His friend "moves too fast" to relax, he's "taken for a ride" (suggesting it's against his will), he "seems distracted."

Off He Goes is like the person who goes to a job interview and when they get asked what their biggest weakness is, they reply "I work too hard and I care too much about my job."

Lament certified Off He Goes lyrics:

My name is Eddie Vedder
This is literally a song about me
no names or places have been made up
to protect the innocent

I am the lowest form of garbage imaginable

I dont think you should pity me
because that would be narcissistic
I hate myself and I want to die.

I am a worm.

Seriously though, what is Ed really criticizing himself about here? Compare it to a song like Gone by U2 from around the same time, one that deals with a similar subject in a similar way.

Bono:
Feels guilty for getting "so much for so little"
He's held on to "every little thing so tightly" till there's "nothing left"
He wanted to get somewhere so badly he lost himself along the way
He mocks himself for changing his name as "necessary" and tries to convince himself he doesn't miss what he left behind
He's thrown his life into a dizzy to the point that he can no longer live without that feeling
He's hurt those around him
He's not actually free, just greedy

Ed:
Should relax
Seems distracted
Has been taken for a ride

Pardon me for not finding those to be particularly self-critical assessments. Or ones that he needs to hide in third person to make effectively.

BurtReynolds wrote:Lament certified Off He Goes lyrics:

My name is Eddie Vedder
This is literally a song about me
no names or places have been made up
to protect the innocent

I am the lowest form of garbage imaginable

I dont think you should pity me
because that would be narcissistic
I hate myself and I want to die.

I am a worm.

Or...

Let me tell you about my friend
He's troubled and distracted
He's dealing with some things that he has no control of
Poor guy, he's pretty nervous and tense and worried all of the time
Man I feel bad for him
He's still strong though
He's pretty cool when he comes around
But then all this shit takes him away
Man I wish he could just hang out and chill with me, cause he's still cool
But people just keep fucking with him...

My friend is me.

For me, it comes down to being able to divorce Pearl Jam the band/Eddie Vedder the person and the music they produce (not possible all the time, and increasingly difficult to do after the PRAMG).

There's nothing in the lyrics of this song that to a casual listener would scream that this is Eddie Vedder speaking about Eddie Vedder. I heard this song (and this album) before I knew much of anything about Pearl Jam (except that one of their albums had a sheep on the cover). I was at stage of my life where I identified massively with this traveller with his "perfectly unkept clothes" (a delightully economical line that offers an instant insight into his character).

And even though looking back, I can identify that as typical teenaged angst, this is still a song that instantly evokes that sense of wanderlust in me. Of dust, jackets and the open road. With the benefit of time, in fact, I've come to appreciate the side of the song that pushes the drawbacks of buying into the romantic idea of that wanderlust, that lack of somewhere to call home.

I don't see it as narcissistic. Nor do I see it as caricaturing. For me, it's an elegaic ode to the journey, from the point of view of somebody who stays in place.

ABNorman wrote:For me, it comes down to being able to divorce Pearl Jam the band/Eddie Vedder the person and the music they produce (not possible all the time, and increasingly difficult to do after the PRAMG).

There's nothing in the lyrics of this song that to a casual listener would scream that this is Eddie Vedder speaking about Eddie Vedder. I heard this song (and this album) before I knew much of anything about Pearl Jam (except that one of their albums had a sheep on the cover). I was at stage of my life where I identified massively with this traveller with his "perfectly unkept clothes" (a delightully economical line that offers an instant insight into his character).

And even though looking back, I can identify that as typical teenaged angst, this is still a song that instantly evokes that sense of wanderlust in me. Of dust, jackets and the open road. With the benefit of time, in fact, I've come to appreciate the side of the song that pushes the drawbacks of buying into the romantic idea of that wanderlust, that lack of somewhere to call home.

I don't see it as narcissistic. Nor do I see it as caricaturing. For me, it's an elegaic ode to the journey, from the point of view of somebody who stays in place.

'He's been taken... too much on'

Heavy burdens weighing in his mind

'He's been taken... where? I don't know.'

Mentally distracted, what's next in life?

If it IS about Ed, think about the headspace. The band just went through serious self-reflection in '95! I think it's THIS song that breaks the angry 5 against 1 PJ mold, and graduates into more metacognitive lyric writing... in my mind, that's what No Code is all about... a band coming to terms with the fact that they're married to each other now, they all want to continue the relationships and the band, despite their obvious differences as musicians.

Make any sense?

I can see how the line could be seen as narcissistic, and i don't particularly like the line. But technically he's relating the size of the thoughts to his own size. Too big for his size doesnt have to mean giant unwieldy thoughts to big for any mere mortal it could be that the thought/problem is normal sized but its he himself who is small, physically/mentally/metaphysically idk whatever.

Like an ant trying to move a rock vs a person trying to move the same rock.

The weirdness comes in with the third person, is this just how he sees himself or does he think other people look at him and think 'aw its like his thoughts are too big for his size'? Did someone actually say it to him once? Does he think that thats how people should be seeing him? Are Eddie2's thoughts actually too big for his size or is this just what Eddie1 thinks. Or is Eddie1 only sympathetic with eddie2 because he knows how it feels, because they are both infact Eddie? Is like an angst feedback loop.

Its like 3 am where i am. Reading this post you can probably tell.

BurtReynolds wrote:

ABNorman wrote:For me, it comes down to being able to divorce Pearl Jam the band/Eddie Vedder the person and the music they produce (not possible all the time, and increasingly difficult to do after the PRAMG).

There's nothing in the lyrics of this song that to a casual listener would scream that this is Eddie Vedder speaking about Eddie Vedder. I heard this song (and this album) before I knew much of anything about Pearl Jam (except that one of their albums had a sheep on the cover). I was at stage of my life where I identified massively with this traveller with his "perfectly unkept clothes" (a delightully economical line that offers an instant insight into his character).

And even though looking back, I can identify that as typical teenaged angst, this is still a song that instantly evokes that sense of wanderlust in me. Of dust, jackets and the open road. With the benefit of time, in fact, I've come to appreciate the side of the song that pushes the drawbacks of buying into the romantic idea of that wanderlust, that lack of somewhere to call home.

I don't see it as narcissistic. Nor do I see it as caricaturing. For me, it's an elegaic ode to the journey, from the point of view of somebody who stays in place.

Yeah, that was an excellent post.

I learned to love this song many years before it ever dawned on me that it might be Eddie singing about himself--that aspect of the song is such an afterthought to me at this point that it's hardly relevant. There are a lot of songs that mean things to me which are far different than what the artist actually intended to write about, and this is a great example.