Red Mosquito

VinylGuy wrote:Taylor’s numbers are amazing. Her album is not that good and I think she knows it but with her fanbase she could release anything and it would be number one.

I remember this is how people talked about PJ in the summer of 1996.

Seeing them at number 5 considering who 1-4 are is pretty impressive. Nonetheless, it stings a little because I was really hoping this album would blow up in success more than recent ones of the past 2-3. I know album sales don’t mean what they used to, but I still remember the days of reading the billboard charts and rooting for new PJ releases to hit number 1 , and I remember being crushed when yield peaked at number 2 (though I think it sold slightly more than no code and still went platinum)

After 10 days and about as many listens, here’s how the album is shaking out for me:

Upper Hand, Scared of Fear: A+
React/Respond, Wreckage, Dark Matter: A/A-
Waiting for Stevie*, Setting Sun*, Running, Got to Give: B/B+
Won’t Tell: B-
Something Special: C

*These two in particular I find most confounding — I like them, but others are hearing a greatness in them that I have to confess thus far eludes me. Still in what I would consider early days (if a step or two beyond the knee-jerk reaction stage), I continue to listen with curious ears.

So I guess that nets the album about a B+ for me. Perhaps just because of the newness, that grade-based assessment doesn't feel true to the overall enjoyment I'm getting from the record at the moment, but it's not terribly far off.

I am more than a little surprised by the grand homecoming this record seems to be for people. Gigaton was a strong album, certainly well-received, and to my ears this is a step back the direction of Backspacer/Lightning Bolt, way more than it is a step toward something different or surprising. It feels close to Backspacer especially, starting with the up-front impact/experience of the record all the way down to the track structure, i.e. 11 songs total, start with a few rockers, go midtempo in the middle, come back at track 8 with a stock punk rocker, step back with a gently swinging ballad at track 9, triumphant-sounding heartland-rock tune at 10, introspective closer at 11. The “Fixer”/“Wreckage” slot is the only wildcard, and what's contained in those templates (very important) is not the same. But the paces of these two albums, the respective journeys they take me on— especially coupled with the fatiguing mixing/mastering (which to my ears is way worse on DM than it is on any other PJ record), and the styles of songwriting — feel very similar to me, more so than my initial experiences with any other two PJ records.

I loved Backspacer when it came out and still like it quite a bit, so that is not intended as a slight. Really, not at all. But I do struggle to hear the comparisons people are making to Yield and various other early works; to me this album has an entirely different vocabulary, not sonically similar to earlier albums and (except for “Stevie”) not really spiritually similar either. It is very much a modern PJ album — perhaps a more consistently realized version of modern PJ than we got on Backspacer or Lightning Bolt, but lacking that sense of curiosity/ambition that I was excited to see them flirting with again on Gigaton.

Overall though, perhaps counterintuitively, I find that -- as PJ adds more of these modern-era records to the canon -- they all sound better by virtue of each other, and they all sound better by virtue of my own expectation-shedding. Whether there really has been a turning of the tides, or whether I've just gone through whatever phase of cynicism I needed to go through during the 2010's, I've reached a point with modern PJ where I find my ears more open to enjoying it for what it is rather than resenting it for what it isn't, where different works from throughout their career can inform and illuminate rather than burden each other, and it's a good feeling. To that end this record is all I need it to be -- a really enjoyable album from a band that I am really grateful is still around to make it.

good post KD! I feel quite similar, DM is a fully realised BS/LB and not a continuation of Gigaton, as I'd initially hoped it would be; but I am glad for what it is anyway, because I do remember thinking "if only they'd try this again" about BS and LB; Gigaton, for me, needed no improvement at this stage in the game, and I'm looking forward to seeing where Pearl Jam and Watt feel they need to go next, since we know they're still capable of whatever they put their full excited selves into

I just feel like there is very little point in wasting any time on discussion of PJ's sales relative to the swifts and wallens (can't forget metro boomins) of the world.

Like it or not, the fans of those artists hear ed's voice and there is simply no recognition, no resonance...nothing. He/PJ is just another artist from the 90s they don't know much about. It's primarily an age thing I would bet, since probably 90% of TS fans are under the age of 30.

And a few short years can make a colossal difference. My wife and I have been watching all the OJ docs again after his death and I keep telling her of my vivid memories about all of these events happening and she just has no recollection. I was 11 and she was 7. That four years means nothing now, but was all the difference at those given ages. Anyone under 35 just can't have memories of PJ's hay day, and that's your clientele for those top 4.

My thoughts are if this is a logical extension of Backspacer and it is a resoundingly more successful version. If I were to do a track order pick comparison,

Scared of Fear over Gonna See My Friend
React/Respond over Got Some
Wreckage over The Fixer
Dark Matter over Johnny Guitar
Won’t Tell over Just Breathe
Upper Hand over Amongst the Waves
Waiting For Stevie over Unthought Known
Running over Supersonic
Speed of Sound over Something Special
Got to Give over Force of Nature
Setting Sun over The End

And most of these for me aren’t even close. That may be why the comparison escapes me. I get that it shares maybe a poppier sound and production, but I think Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility, and I think it’s the accessibility effort that makes it seem more Yield or Vs. territory, as Backspacer to me seems like a half-hearted effort at toss away pop punk than this more anthemic record at heart.

Kevin Davis wrote:After 10 days and about as many listens, here’s how the album is shaking out for me:

Upper Hand, Scared of Fear: A+
React/Respond, Wreckage, Dark Matter: A/A-
Waiting for Stevie*, Setting Sun*, Running, Got to Give: B/B+
Won’t Tell: B-
Something Special: C

*These two in particular I find most confounding — I like them, but others are hearing a greatness in them that I have to confess thus far eludes me. Still in what I would consider early days (if a step or two beyond the knee-jerk reaction stage), I continue to listen with curious ears.

So I guess that nets the album about a B+ for me. Perhaps just because of the newness, that grade-based assessment doesn't feel true to the overall enjoyment I'm getting from the record at the moment, but it's not terribly far off.

I am more than a little surprised by the grand homecoming this record seems to be for people. Gigaton was a strong album, certainly well-received, and to my ears this is a step back the direction of Backspacer/Lightning Bolt, way more than it is a step toward something different or surprising. It feels close to Backspacer especially, starting with the up-front impact/experience of the record all the way down to the track structure, i.e. 11 songs total, start with a few rockers, go midtempo in the middle, come back at track 8 with a stock punk rocker, step back with a gently swinging ballad at track 9, triumphant-sounding heartland-rock tune at 10, introspective closer at 11. The “Fixer”/“Wreckage” slot is the only wildcard, and what's contained in those templates (very important) is not the same. But the paces of these two albums, the respective journeys they take me on— especially coupled with the fatiguing mixing/mastering (which to my ears is way worse on DM than it is on any other PJ record), and the styles of songwriting — feel very similar to me, more so than my initial experiences with any other two PJ records.

I loved Backspacer when it came out and still like it quite a bit, so that is not intended as a slight. Really, not at all. But I do struggle to hear the comparisons people are making to Yield and various other early works; to me this album has an entirely different vocabulary, not sonically similar to earlier albums and (except for “Stevie”) not really spiritually similar either. It is very much a modern PJ album — perhaps a more consistently realized version of modern PJ than we got on Backspacer or Lightning Bolt, but lacking that sense of curiosity/ambition that I was excited to see them flirting with again on Gigaton.

Overall though, perhaps counterintuitively, I find that -- as PJ adds more of these modern-era records to the canon -- they all sound better by virtue of each other, and they all sound better by virtue of my own expectation-shedding. Whether there really has been a turning of the tides, or whether I've just gone through whatever phase of cynicism I needed to go through during the 2010's, I've reached a point with modern PJ where I find my ears more open to enjoying it for what it is rather than resenting it for what it isn't, where different works from throughout their career can inform and illuminate rather than burden each other, and it's a good feeling. To that end this record is all I need it to be -- a really enjoyable album from a band that I am really grateful is still around to make it.

yield is a quite warm, open hearted record even when it goes to some darker spaces, and I suspect thats where the comparison is born. it is for me

liebzz wrote:Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility

You are out of your mind

they're two different versions of a pop record approach; I'm not saying they stand up to a note for note comparison, but they are both / all (including LB) reaching for a certain accessibility, they aren't "cliquey" records; I would argue Gigaton kind of is

Jorge wrote:

liebzz wrote:Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility

You are out of your mind

*Target video joins the chat*

Ms Harmless wrote:

Jorge wrote:

liebzz wrote:Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility

You are out of your mind

*Target video joins the chat*

So does the wildly awkward Johnny Guitar, gems and rhinestones, Speed of Sound (my favorite on Backspacer now), and The End.

Yeah, I think if DM has any recent corollaries in the catalog, it's the stuff on the back half of Backspacer (things like ATW, Unthought Known, Force of Nature); they're anthemic but maybe a bit tightly-wound and polished compared to when we think of the anthems PJ wrote when they were getting started. By and large, that back half of Backspacer is my least favorite run of music the band has put out; I think they were way more successful this time around.

I think the sonic comparison to Ten, at least to my ears, stems from them, for lack of a better term, going "big" with more songs here than I feel like they have in a very long time. Most of the songs do feel like they could exist in a set-closer position (I don't necessarily think that's why they wrote them that way, just that that was how they came out). Most of the songs reach for a kind of anthemic conclusion, with big solos and a big moment for Eddie, in a way that's reminiscent of Ten, even if the songs and songwriting themselves don't really sound similar. I think for most of the songs it works, though there's a few (particularly Setting Sun) where I wish they'd pulled their punches a bit and lived in the mood that the start of the song set.

"The End" is an acoustic ballad with strings

"Unthought Known" is a pretty accessible song and reaches for that soaring sound

"Speed Of Sound" is a very poppy, synth-heavy song

"Johnny Guitar" is a little quirky but "wildly awkward"?

I will give you that Amongst the Waves, Unthought Known, and Force of Nature tried to be anthemic. But that’s one quarter of the album trying vis-a-vis most of Dark Matter.

liebzz wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

Jorge wrote:

liebzz wrote:Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility

You are out of your mind

*Target video joins the chat*

So does the wildly awkward Johnny Guitar, gems and rhinestones, Speed of Sound (my favorite on Backspacer now), and The End.

to my ear, none of those are even slightly outside the realms of pop rock; Johnny Guitar is smutty for me to an extent that I don't really enjoy, but wow, people love smut and I think Ed stooped pretty low to scratch that itch for them

digster wrote:Yeah, I think if DM has any recent corollaries in the catalog, it's the stuff on the back half of Backspacer (things like ATW, Unthought Known, Force of Nature)

My initial impression of DM was "this is an album full of 'Force of Nature's"

liebzz wrote:My thoughts are if this is a logical extension of Backspacer and it is a resoundingly more successful version. If I were to do a track order pick comparison,

Scared of Fear over Gonna See My Friend
React/Respond over Got Some
Wreckage over The Fixer
Dark Matter over Johnny Guitar
Won’t Tell over Just Breathe
Upper Hand over Amongst the Waves
Waiting For Stevie over Unthought Known
Running over Supersonic
Speed of Sound over Something Special
Got to Give over Force of Nature
Setting Sun over The End

And most of these for me aren’t even close. That may be why the comparison escapes me. I get that it shares maybe a poppier sound and production, but I think Backspacer didn’t quite push for this level of accessibility, and I think it’s the accessibility effort that makes it seem more Yield or Vs. territory, as Backspacer to me seems like a half-hearted effort at toss away pop punk than this more anthemic record at heart.

Almost every song on Backspacer -- almost -- goes for a big chorus or some major anthemic moment, it's just that some of the songs aren't musically as strong as the intention. "Amongst the Waves" is very much in the form of a big catchy, triumphant pop/rock song, it just isn't written well enough to fully bring it off. In that sense, DM hits the mark a bit more often, but IMO it still isn't without its share of melodies that just feel kind of "WTF" to me (the chorus to "Won't Tell," the opening lines in "Waiting For Stevie").

There are a few of those Backspacer songs I'd take over their DM counterparts -- "The End" over "Setting Sun" for sure, and probably "The Fixer" over "Wreckage," though I recognize I'm likely to catch a fist to the jaw for that one. There are some others that are 50/50 (track 4, track 10). But really my comment was more about the structure and feel of the records more than about what's better/worse. For the most part I agree with your better/worses, or at least am not caught off-guard by them.

stip wrote:yield is a quite warm, open hearted record even when it goes to some darker spaces, and I suspect thats where the comparison is born. it is for me

I think there is a sense of quiet inward-looking on Yield that no record that sounds like DM could ever replicate, and musically there are just no analogs on DM for songs like "Pilate," "Wishlist," "MFC," "In Hiding," "Push Me Pull Me," "No Way," "ATY," etc (likewise there are no analogs on Yield for songs like "Won't Tell," "Upper Hand," "Running," "React/Respond," etc.). I just don't hear a lot of musical connectors there.

Jorge wrote:

digster wrote:Yeah, I think if DM has any recent corollaries in the catalog, it's the stuff on the back half of Backspacer (things like ATW, Unthought Known, Force of Nature)

My initial impression of DM was "this is an album full of 'Force of Nature's"

Honestly, that's not far off.

Jorge wrote:"The End" is an acoustic ballad with strings

"Unthought Known" is a pretty accessible song and reaches for that soaring sound

"Speed Of Sound" is a very poppy, synth-heavy song

"Johnny Guitar" is a little quirky but "wildly awkward"?

I don’t think Speed of Sound as particularly poppy, and yes wildly awkward - not in an experimental way, but in a subject matter and in both the music and vocals. It comes across to me as Pearl Jam forcefully shoehorning another personality onto their song.

Monkey_Driven wrote:

Jorge wrote:

digster wrote:Yeah, I think if DM has any recent corollaries in the catalog, it's the stuff on the back half of Backspacer (things like ATW, Unthought Known, Force of Nature)

My initial impression of DM was "this is an album full of 'Force of Nature's"

Honestly, that's not far off.

not at all