Red Mosquito

Here's Bernie's statement on this. I don't think it's fair to say that the left in general supports defunding the police.

tragabigzanda wrote:He's blaming "the left" for "chasing away" (his words) the support of BLM by moderate types by using language that doesn't get to the actual intention. It seems like you've confused his gripe with the leftists' messaging with being aimed at BLM.

I read his gripe as being upset with the message "Defund the Police" because he believes it's doing harm to BLM and taking back ground that activists have gained.

But "Defund the Police" isn't political messaging, it's activist messaging. BLM is the one saying "Defund the Police." If his issue is with the message, then his issue is with the activists and not the political left. Which is why I said there's a difference between politicians and activists.

If that's not what he meant, then he should clarify his post.

To be clear, I'm not mad at Biff. Multiple posters have been expressing this idea that "defund the police" is bad messaging for a while now. I've been listening to that and listening to the other side of the argument and I've come down on the other side. Biff's was just the most recent post. I responded to it partly, because I wanted to weigh in on how I feel about this issue (now that I have a little more clarity on how I feel) and partly because his specific phrasing felt really inaccurate to me.

Obviously, people saying that "Defund the Police" isn't tracking well with certain voters aren't necessarily wrong. I've seen polls where a large majority responds negatively to the question "Do you believe in defunding the police" but then respond overwhelming positively to questions like "Do you believe there should be a new division of public safety responsible for responding to mental health and domestic violence emergencies that are separate from the police".

My position (I understand many disagree) is that the pressure shouldn't be on activists to change their message. Republicans and the opposition will find a way to distort and twist any pithy slogan. Our elected officials, however, need to be clear on where they stand and what their vision for a revised police force looks like. And voters should do their homework instead of propagating right-wing talking points that undermine what's at stake.

Revise the police!

not as catchy though.

ACAB!

durdencommatyler wrote: My position (I understand many disagree) is that the pressure shouldn't be on activists to change their message. Republicans and the opposition will find a way to distort and twist any pithy slogan. Our elected officials, however, need to be clear on where they stand and what their vision for a revised police force looks like. And voters should do their homework instead of propagating right-wing talking points that undermine what's at stake.

edit: screwed up the post

I think this is an example of why the left can sometimes have the reputation of tripping over itself even when there's nothing for it to trip over. These protests are not even two weeks old, and it seems like there's already micromanaging in the fear that a Republican might run a negative ad this fall. Think about what has happened in the past two weeks. The left is on the moral side of the issue, and they actually enjoy popular support, which is not always a given on this issue! They're actually dragging some Republicans to the left, at least in rhetoric, and the Democratic candidate for president has already said he's against defunding, which makes him look to voters like he's to the right of the left and to the left of the unpopular.

If in that situation, with all that in your favor, if what it devolves into is an intra-party haggling of how exactly protesters and activists in streets should frame their slogans, with everyone from Bernie Sanders to Joe Manchin needing to give their take, than I honestly am not sure if anything will ever help Democrats get Republicans out of their heads when making political decisions.

digster wrote:I think this is an example of why the left can sometimes have the reputation of tripping over itself even when there's nothing for it to trip over. These protests are not even two weeks old, and it seems like there's already micromanaging in the fear that a Republican might run a negative ad this fall. Think about what has happened in the past two weeks. The left is on the moral side of the issue, and they actually enjoy popular support, which is not always a given on this issue! They're actually dragging some Republicans to the left, at least in rhetoric, and the Democratic candidate for president has already said he's against defunding, which makes him look to voters like he's to the right of the left and to the left of the unpopular.

If in that situation, with all that in your favor, if what it devolves into is an intra-party haggling of how exactly protesters and activists in streets should frame their slogans, with everyone from Bernie Sanders to Joe Manchin needing to give their take, than I honestly am not sure if anything will ever help Democrats get Republicans out of their heads when making political decisions.

I agree and disagree. They took this attitude with free healthcare. Great slogan but no definition. They get in power and can't pass a bill that anyone really wanted, even with a majority because free healthcare meant something entirely different to every Dem. Words have to have meaning and an agreed to meaning.

durdencommatyler wrote:And voters should do their homework

But we both know this isn't what happens come election time, on both sides, so back to his point, most people are associating anything "anti-Trump" as pro-Democrat. It's a pretty easy jump for the masses against Trump to make and associate "get rid of the police" with the Democrats

What, do you think, will be the end result of saying "you need to nuance your radical demands" a week after these demands enter the public consciousness.

Rob wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote: My position (I understand many disagree) is that the pressure shouldn't be on activists to change their message. Republicans and the opposition will find a way to distort and twist any pithy slogan. Our elected officials, however, need to be clear on where they stand and what their vision for a revised police force looks like. And voters should do their homework instead of propagating right-wing talking points that undermine what's at stake.

This is true.

Also

By the way the left has a reputation of tripping over its messaging because the various plans to remake society are almost necessarily heterogeneous, whereas the various plans to keep society the same are pretty unified!

Mickey wrote:By the way the left has a reputation of tripping over its messaging because the various plans to remake society are almost necessarily heterogeneous, whereas the various plans to keep society the same are pretty unified!

This is a very, very good point.

But McP is right with his last post too. I think he means to say that republicans know how to unify around an easy to sell message and it shouldn’t be as hard as it is for the Dems to learn this.

Strat wrote:Revise the police!

not as catchy though.

ACAB!

I can’t see that acronym and not think of Abacab by Genesis.

Rob wrote:Here's Bernie's statement on this. I don't think it's fair to say that the left in general supports defunding the police.

how different the world could be were he the nominee in 2016

surfndestroy wrote:

digster wrote:I think this is an example of why the left can sometimes have the reputation of tripping over itself even when there's nothing for it to trip over. These protests are not even two weeks old, and it seems like there's already micromanaging in the fear that a Republican might run a negative ad this fall. Think about what has happened in the past two weeks. The left is on the moral side of the issue, and they actually enjoy popular support, which is not always a given on this issue! They're actually dragging some Republicans to the left, at least in rhetoric, and the Democratic candidate for president has already said he's against defunding, which makes him look to voters like he's to the right of the left and to the left of the unpopular.

If in that situation, with all that in your favor, if what it devolves into is an intra-party haggling of how exactly protesters and activists in streets should frame their slogans, with everyone from Bernie Sanders to Joe Manchin needing to give their take, than I honestly am not sure if anything will ever help Democrats get Republicans out of their heads when making political decisions.

I agree and disagree. They took this attitude with free healthcare. Great slogan but no definition. They get in power and can't pass a bill that anyone really wanted, even with a majority because free healthcare meant something entirely different to every Dem. Words have to have meaning and an agreed to meaning.

96583UP wrote:

Rob wrote:Here's Bernie's statement on this. I don't think it's fair to say that the left in general supports defunding the police.

how different the world could be were he the nominee in 2016

It's hard to shift to well-educated, well-trained, well-paid professionals without the budget to do so... even harder when the entire country has lost it's fucking mind and is now all bandwagoning into #ACAB driven collective punishment of cops. Where are these magical people Bernie wants suppose to come from now?

Bi_3 wrote:

96583UP wrote:

Rob wrote:Here's Bernie's statement on this. I don't think it's fair to say that the left in general supports defunding the police.

how different the world could be were he the nominee in 2016

It's hard to shift to well-educated, well-trained, well-paid professionals without the budget to do so... even harder when the entire country has lost it's fucking mind and is now all bandwagoning into #ACAB driven collective punishment of cops. Where are these magical people Bernie wants suppose to come from now?

Free Colleges.