Red Mosquito

i got bugs wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

i got bugs wrote:He says right off the bat how he worries about her getting sexually assaulted, which is the basis for most people's hatred of this bathroom issue

Right...but there's never been any evidence that trans-friendly restroom rules lead to sexual assaults. Not one iota.

I'm still pissed that this has become about "bathroom bills" and not about other discrimination that trans people face.

Well not yet anyways.. most people I know against the trans bathroom aren't so much worried about their daughters getting assaulted by a trans in a bathroom, but a sick predator throwing on a dress and taking advantage of the law.. and honestly I think it's a legitimate concern

I'm all for anyone having equal rights (job wise, not getting picked on or made fun of, shit like that) and all but I kinda think this is taking things too far.. honestly when it comes down to it I can give a shit less because I'll probably never be affected, but still

Yeah, because a law saying someone can't go in a certain restroom is going to a stop a sick predator from entering said restroom and assaulting someone. I can just imagine their thoughts now:

"Ooh, look at that person. Boy, I'd sure like to rape them. But oh no! They went into a bathroom! Curse this blasted state for making it legally prohibited for me to go in there! Oh well, I guess I won't be doing any raping today."

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

i got bugs wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

i got bugs wrote:He says right off the bat how he worries about her getting sexually assaulted, which is the basis for most people's hatred of this bathroom issue

Right...but there's never been any evidence that trans-friendly restroom rules lead to sexual assaults. Not one iota.

I'm still pissed that this has become about "bathroom bills" and not about other discrimination that trans people face.

Well not yet anyways.. most people I know against the trans bathroom aren't so much worried about their daughters getting assaulted by a trans in a bathroom, but a sick predator throwing on a dress and taking advantage of the law.. and honestly I think it's a legitimate concern

I'm all for anyone having equal rights (job wise, not getting picked on or made fun of, shit like that) and all but I kinda think this is taking things too far.. honestly when it comes down to it I can give a shit less because I'll probably never be affected, but still

Yeah, because a law saying someone can't go in a certain restroom is going to a stop a sick predator from entering said restroom and assaulting someone. I can just imagine their thoughts now:

"Ooh, look at that person. Boy, I'd sure like to rape them. But oh no! They went into a bathroom! Curse this blasted state for making it legally prohibited for me to go in there! Oh well, I guess I won't be doing any raping today."

Louis CK has a bit (this sentence is already LV's wet dream, so stick around!) where he talks about how he doesn't send his daughters into women's restrooms because it's basically like saying, "See you later...maybe!"

Should men be allowed in men's rooms? Can you imagine all the men who will just act like unassuming, everyday people and then go into a men's bathroom and assault someone--maybe even a kid? Honestly, I think it's a legitimate concern.

Simple Torture wrote:Should men be allowed in men's rooms? Can you imagine all the men who will just act like unassuming, everyday people and then go into a men's bathroom and assault someone--maybe even a kid? Honestly, I think it's a legitimate concern.

No, you can be sure they won't because they're not wearing dresses.

I'll just keep it simple: all bathrooms should be unisex.

its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."

Is there any mechanism to stop some perv from saying he's trans and hanging out in women's bathrooms all day? Can someone make him leave? Does he have to produce some proof? Does he even have to wear a wig?

Maher's quote was good enough for me: If you look like a woman, use the ladies' room, if you look like a man, use the men's room, and if you're wearing a beard and a dress, hold it until you get home.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

i got bugs wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

i got bugs wrote:He says right off the bat how he worries about her getting sexually assaulted, which is the basis for most people's hatred of this bathroom issue

Right...but there's never been any evidence that trans-friendly restroom rules lead to sexual assaults. Not one iota.

I'm still pissed that this has become about "bathroom bills" and not about other discrimination that trans people face.

Well not yet anyways.. most people I know against the trans bathroom aren't so much worried about their daughters getting assaulted by a trans in a bathroom, but a sick predator throwing on a dress and taking advantage of the law.. and honestly I think it's a legitimate concern

I'm all for anyone having equal rights (job wise, not getting picked on or made fun of, shit like that) and all but I kinda think this is taking things too far.. honestly when it comes down to it I can give a shit less because I'll probably never be affected, but still

Yeah, because a law saying someone can't go in a certain restroom is going to a stop a sick predator from entering said restroom and assaulting someone. I can just imagine their thoughts now:

"Ooh, look at that person. Boy, I'd sure like to rape them. But oh no! They went into a bathroom! Curse this blasted state for making it legally prohibited for me to go in there! Oh well, I guess I won't be doing any raping today."

So basically this is the gun debate, about how one side feels something is potentially harmful n should be banned, and the other feels the criminal is responsible for the crime.. but reversed..

BurtReynolds wrote:its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."

Exactly

My point is for every 1 transsexual uncomfortable with using a bathroom, there's like a thousand females understandably uncomfortable about someone with guy parts in the same bathroom as them

It's just for the greater good of the number of individuals involved..

BurtReynolds wrote: Is there any mechanism to stop some perv from saying he's trans and hanging out in women's bathrooms all day? Can someone make him leave? Does he have to produce some proof? Does he even have to wear a wig?

I think it's disingenuous to ask if there are any mechanisms in place to make sure that people aren't perving out in public restrooms; of course there are. If I was at, say, Wal-Mart, and there was some guy standing in the restroom watching people use the toilet, whether he's straight, gay, bi, asexual, cis, trans, a crossdresser, or fucking purple, I'm going to let them know that there's someone in there who's making people uncomfortable. It's then up to them to decide if he's loitering, squatting (not the good kind), or violating other's privacy and then to act accordingly (or maybe he's just waiting for his kid to finish taking a shit; misunderstandings happen, and as long as you act tactfully, you'll be able to figure it out); they have every right to remove someone whom they believe is a safety concern, or to have law enforcement remove them. And yeah, you're going to have some people yelling as they're dragged out: "You're only doing this to me because I'm [insert how they identify themselves here]!" But you're always going to get those nutjobs who try to use their identity as a shield for creeping on others, that doesn't mean gender-identity-conscious policies give people carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want.

its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."

This is complicated and it's still something I'm struggling with answering, but I'll give it a shot: yes, we should listen to the people whom these laws affect the most and use their input to help educate everyone about what it's all about. But that includes listening to cis women and trans women, straight women and gay women, young women and older women, and so on and so forth. I don't think anyone's done comprehensive studies or surveys or polling about how people feel, and I'd be very interested to see it. I think you're right that it's not up to men to tell women how to feel / what to worry about, but then again: I don't believe that public accommodations should be denied to a minority of the population if there's no credible evidence that these policies actually put people in danger. I think there's also something interesting going on with the fact that most of the most vocal supporters of bathroom-legislation are men, and that there's an element of weird chivalry involved: "We're doing it for the women!" (And then, when they go off book, like NC's candidate for attorney general did, they say things like that the laws are intended to keep society "straight.")

i got bugs wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."

Exactly

My point is for every 1 transsexual uncomfortable with using a bathroom, there's like a thousand females understandably uncomfortable about someone with guy parts in the same bathroom as them

It's just for the greater good of the number of individuals involved..

If the majority of society was uncomfortable with blacks using the same drinking fountains as white people, you'd be down with that, yeah?

(Let's be clear: public drinking fountains are fucking disgusting; I've never not seen someone go full-Pawnee on one.)

i got bugs wrote:My point is for every 1 transsexual uncomfortable with using a bathroom, there's like a thousand females understandably uncomfortable about someone with guy parts in the same bathroom as them

I didn't realize that useless penises were such a serious threat to public safety.

Thank the lord for sex changes.

How would a law prevent a perv from entering a public bathroom if they wanted to exactly?
I think the real issue is that trans (and other LGBTQ people) are considered sexual perverts by certain people.

The problem with The predator in the dress is that it's a red herring.

Rape is illegal already.

That could already happen law or no law.

Women's bathrooms have stalls, you're really not going to know what parts the other person has.

Bathrooms are not policed and certainly not monitored. This law is simply a fundamentalist reaction to gay marriage being legalized.

It has very very little to do with bathrooms and more to do with the feelings of one group of people about being in close contact with another, that's pretty much the extent of it.

Electromatic wrote:The problem with The predator in the dress is that it's a red herring.

Rape is illegal already.

That could already happen law or no law.

Women's bathrooms have stalls, you're really not going to know what parts the other person has.

Bathrooms are not policed and certainly not monitored. This law is simply a fundamentalist reaction to gay marriage being legalized.

It has very very little to do with bathrooms and more to do with the feelings of one group of people about being in close contact with another, that's pretty much the extent of it.

Yep.

Electromatic wrote:The problem with The predator in the dress is that it's a red herring.

Rape is illegal already.

That could already happen law or no law.

Women's bathrooms have stalls, you're really not going to know what parts the other person has.

Bathrooms are not policed and certainly not monitored. This law is simply a fundamentalist reaction to gay marriage being legalized.

It has very very little to do with bathrooms and more to do with the feelings of one group of people about being in close contact with another, that's pretty much the extent of it.

These are the same shitheads who think that gay marriage will lead to the extinction of the human race. It's astonishing to me that the thought is even entertained. 10 years from now, we will be back to arguing about whether or not the earth is flat.

B.o.B's way ahead of the game.

Yeah WCT the terrifying truth is that people are already arguing about that again

Was concern expressed about trans people, using bathrooms different than what their birth certificates would suggest, by people in relevant numbers? I can't think of any instance when that happened to a degree that would demand laws to change.

Mine wrote:Was concern expressed about trans people, using bathrooms different than what their birth certificates would suggest, by people in relevant numbers? I can't think of any instance when that happened to a degree that would demand laws to change.

I think it has everything to do with what electro mentioned above (gay marriage being legalized) and with Caitlyn Jenner's visibility--no, really. I think most of the people who write and support these laws and policies basically didn't believe transgendered people existed, that they were just some urban myth or something that existed in a 4-block area of NYC. Then, someone who's on an extremely popular reality show (and a successful athlete, a national hero basically) goes through a very public transition (check out the 2nd post in this thread where I talked about this a year ago), and suddenly people start talking bathroom bills and public safety and the menace of men in dresses in women's locker rooms. I definitely think the two things are connected.

Simple Torture wrote:

Mine wrote:Was concern expressed about trans people, using bathrooms different than what their birth certificates would suggest, by people in relevant numbers? I can't think of any instance when that happened to a degree that would demand laws to change.

I think it has everything to do with what electro mentioned above (gay marriage being legalized) and with Caitlyn Jenner's visibility--no, really. I think most of the people who write and support these laws and policies basically didn't believe transgendered people existed, that they were just some urban myth or something that existed in a 4-block area of NYC. Then, someone who's on an extremely popular reality show (and a successful athlete, a national hero basically) goes through a very public transition (check out the 2nd post in this thread where I talked about this a year ago), and suddenly people start talking bathroom bills and public safety and the menace of men in dresses in women's locker rooms. I definitely think the two things are connected.

Jenner before transitioning was more of a Kardashian than a national hero as far as i can tell which doesn't really help the trans community as don't a lot of things around and about her.
I don't think Jenner transitioning had much of an effect on all of this in the sense that it hardly brought anything out of obscurity. For example the Amazon show Transparent pre dated Jenner's Sawyer interview and it attracted a lot of attention.