Red Mosquito

EJ wrote:I've always dug Whipping. When I first heard it in 1994, it seemed like the exact type of song you'd expect from them at the time. Punchy, aggressive, with a nice rhythm.

Maybe those that aren't too fond of it discovered it later? Maybe seems a bit immature? Not sure.

For agressive songs i prefer something like Go, Animal, Leash, Alone, STBC or Last Exit.
I have the feeling Whipping was one of the first "punk" songs from Ed. Its a good song anyway.

VinylGuy wrote: For agressive songs i prefer something like Go, Animal, Leash, Alone, STBC or Last Exit.
I have the feeling Whipping was one of the first "punk" songs from Ed. Its a good song anyway.

This song does not deserve to be listed with those other good songs.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Stip wrote: 3. I don't like the highs on No code nearly as much as most everyone else. But even granting that they're as good as everyone else seems to think they are you still have songs like lukin, mankind, I'm Open that are just a major step down from the rest of the album

How does Stupid Mop affect your ranking of Vitalogy, though?

It's both the longest song on the album and the album closer, it's a pretty important part of the overall whole.

acknowledging that this is a kind of 'cheating' i basically just ignore it. I stop the album at Immortality. Thinking about the concept as a whole I get how it fits (I don't think it's brilliant but I get it) and so I can work it into my understanding of the album as a whole, but I can reach a full stop with immortality. Perhaps because it is so different it is also easier for me to carve it out of my everyday experience of the record, like it gives me permission to not treat it like a song because it doesn't think of itself as a song. it's why Stupid mop doesn't drag down vitalogy but the final block of songs drags down No Code for me. I can't ignore them in the same way.

Stip wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Stip wrote: 3. I don't like the highs on No code nearly as much as most everyone else. But even granting that they're as good as everyone else seems to think they are you still have songs like lukin, mankind, I'm Open that are just a major step down from the rest of the album

How does Stupid Mop affect your ranking of Vitalogy, though?

It's both the longest song on the album and the album closer, it's a pretty important part of the overall whole.

acknowledging that this is a kind of 'cheating' i basically just ignore it. I stop the album at Immortality. Thinking about the concept as a whole I get how it fits (I don't think it's brilliant but I get it) and so I can work it into my understanding of the album as a whole, but I can reach a full stop with immortality. Perhaps because it is so different it is also easier for me to carve it out of my everyday experience of the record, like it gives me permission to not treat it like a song because it doesn't think of itself as a song. it's why Stupid mop doesn't drag down vitalogy but the final block of songs drags down No Code for me. I can't ignore them in the same way.

Well said. Agree with you about both albums.

theplatypus wrote:"Whipping" is one of those beloved Pearl Jam songs whose popularity I'm completely dumbfounded by. I really don't think it's that great at all.

i believe the lyrics are what makes it such a crucial song for the album. satan's bed, not for you, last exit, tremor christ, immortality and corduroy all play off and speak to the same issue as whipping.

EJ wrote:I've always dug Whipping. When I first heard it in 1994, it seemed like the exact type of song you'd expect from them at the time. Punchy, aggressive, with a nice rhythm.

Maybe those that aren't too fond of it discovered it later? Maybe seems a bit immature? Not sure.

I only really like versions they played with Dave, it turned into a formless thrash without him holding it all together.

Stip wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Stip wrote: 3. I don't like the highs on No code nearly as much as most everyone else. But even granting that they're as good as everyone else seems to think they are you still have songs like lukin, mankind, I'm Open that are just a major step down from the rest of the album

How does Stupid Mop affect your ranking of Vitalogy, though?

It's both the longest song on the album and the album closer, it's a pretty important part of the overall whole.

acknowledging that this is a kind of 'cheating' i basically just ignore it. I stop the album at Immortality. Thinking about the concept as a whole I get how it fits (I don't think it's brilliant but I get it) and so I can work it into my understanding of the album as a whole, but I can reach a full stop with immortality. Perhaps because it is so different it is also easier for me to carve it out of my everyday experience of the record, like it gives me permission to not treat it like a song because it doesn't think of itself as a song. it's why Stupid mop doesn't drag down vitalogy but the final block of songs drags down No Code for me. I can't ignore them in the same way.

And this logic applied to both records is exactly why No Code is so high to me even though it's inconsistent. When it nears its end I just say "fuck it" and skip around as I see fit. Interestingly when my PJ-fandom was at its highest I usually listened to albums on random before I became a true "album" guy and would even leave off songs I disliked. I think that plays a big part because they're so cemented that it doesn't matter where my listening tastes go.

EJ wrote:I've always dug Whipping. When I first heard it in 1994, it seemed like the exact type of song you'd expect from them at the time. Punchy, aggressive, with a nice rhythm.

Maybe those that aren't too fond of it discovered it later? Maybe seems a bit immature? Not sure.

I can see that (re: coming off as immature).

Then again...I really liked Whipping, and have liked it from the get go. Whereas "Leash" I thought was terrible when I was a teenager, and I remember thinking to myself that the song will age badly.

So basically what I'm saying is that Whipping rocks, and Leash is a song that I don't get the love for. I think it's one of PJ's worst.

Gods' Die wrote:

Stip wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Stip wrote: 3. I don't like the highs on No code nearly as much as most everyone else. But even granting that they're as good as everyone else seems to think they are you still have songs like lukin, mankind, I'm Open that are just a major step down from the rest of the album

How does Stupid Mop affect your ranking of Vitalogy, though?

It's both the longest song on the album and the album closer, it's a pretty important part of the overall whole.

acknowledging that this is a kind of 'cheating' i basically just ignore it. I stop the album at Immortality. Thinking about the concept as a whole I get how it fits (I don't think it's brilliant but I get it) and so I can work it into my understanding of the album as a whole, but I can reach a full stop with immortality. Perhaps because it is so different it is also easier for me to carve it out of my everyday experience of the record, like it gives me permission to not treat it like a song because it doesn't think of itself as a song. it's why Stupid mop doesn't drag down vitalogy but the final block of songs drags down No Code for me. I can't ignore them in the same way.

And this logic applied to both records is exactly why No Code is so high to me even though it's inconsistent. When it nears its end I just say "fuck it" and skip around as I see fit. Interestingly when my PJ-fandom was at its highest I usually listened to albums on random before I became a true "album" guy and would even leave off songs I disliked. I think that plays a big part because they're so cemented that it doesn't matter where my listening tastes go.

that makes sense. I could never quite apply that logic to No Code, however, since a lot of the songs I think are weaker are still 'songs' and harder for me to ignore.

I don't think the highs on no code are nearly as good either. One of the few PJ albums with no 5 star songs for me.

This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

digster wrote:redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

it's the only thing i want so much...

digster wrote:This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

Yeah...that's what I was trying to explain. That's how I view those songs on No Code as well. 10 "songs" on Vitalogy, and if you end at Present Tense on No Code that's 10 songs as well (can even throw in Around the Bend if I'm in the mood). Up to Present Tense I don't see how you can rate Vitalogy as demonstrably better; that run is pretty fucking great.

Gods' Die wrote:

digster wrote:This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

Yeah...that's what I was trying to explain. That's how I view those songs on No Code as well. 10 "songs" on Vitalogy, and if you end at Present Tense on No Code that's 10 songs as well (can even throw in Around the Bend if I'm in the mood). Up to Present Tense I don't see how you can rate Vitalogy as demonstrably better; that run is pretty fucking great.

put me in the camp that just likes the whole concept, feel, and sound of Vitalogy better than anything before or since.

elliseamos wrote:

Gods' Die wrote:

digster wrote:This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

Yeah...that's what I was trying to explain. That's how I view those songs on No Code as well. 10 "songs" on Vitalogy, and if you end at Present Tense on No Code that's 10 songs as well (can even throw in Around the Bend if I'm in the mood). Up to Present Tense I don't see how you can rate Vitalogy as demonstrably better; that run is pretty fucking great.

put me in the camp that just likes the whole concept, feel, and sound of Vitalogy better than anything before or since.

Yeah...probably, but No Code isn't a step down. It's my 1st or 2nd favorite PJ record depending on the day.

Gods' Die wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

Gods' Die wrote:

digster wrote:This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

Yeah...that's what I was trying to explain. That's how I view those songs on No Code as well. 10 "songs" on Vitalogy, and if you end at Present Tense on No Code that's 10 songs as well (can even throw in Around the Bend if I'm in the mood). Up to Present Tense I don't see how you can rate Vitalogy as demonstrably better; that run is pretty fucking great.

put me in the camp that just likes the whole concept, feel, and sound of Vitalogy better than anything before or since.

Yeah...probably, but No Code isn't a step down. It's my 1st or 2nd favorite PJ record depending on the day.

i'm a huge fan of No Code, i'd put it #3 behind Binaural (these days). And honestly, Self-Titled has been growing on me quite a bit for some strange reason.

Today's list:

10th album
No Code
Vitalogy
Binaural
Yield
Vs
Ten
Riot Act
Backspacer
Avocado

digster wrote:This isn't meant to be a dick-ish sounding post, more just curious; why would something like "I'm Open" or even Mankind counts as a song and the stuff like Aye Davantina and Stupid Mop on Vitalogy doesn't. I get arguing that the album may contain your favorite songs, but it seems like for better or for worse those tracks are on there. Maybe it's their best album in spite of those tracks. I realize this risks redoing that whole Vitalogy guided tour thing again.

I thought i explained this in the first post but I can try and do a better job.

1. I think the 'filler' songs make sense on the album thematically (for the most part) and so when I think about the album as a whole they make sense for me there. The record may even be better for their inclusion. On the other hand, I don't know that I'd say mankind enhances No Code (or I'm open or some of the weaker no code tracks). Comparing Bugs and I'm Open, for instance--I think Bugs is a pretty savage and very clever spoken word piece that reinforces many of the important ideas and themes on vitalogy in a bitterly fun way. I'm Open is sort of endearing and embarassing at the same time in the same way that looking back at your high school yearbook photo might be, but it's not something you'd revisit for any reason other than the fact that you haven't done it for a while.

2. I think this analogy makes sense. The 'experimental' tracks on vitalogy enhance the album but I don't think of them as songs in the normal sense so it is easy to detatch them from my normal listening. They are like deleted scenes in a movie that add useful context and enhance your appreciation of the film, but they aren't things you need to watch it. Whereas the No Code songs, because they seem more like normal songs to me, are harder for me to overlook. They're more like a bad scene in the movie proper, and so harder to overlook.

I think you're vastly overrating the "experimental" tracks on Vitalogy. Fucking Stupid Mop, come on.

Gods' Die wrote:I think you're vastly overrating the "experimental" tracks on Vitalogy. Fucking Stupid Mop, come on.

No he's not.

the only one I would actively seek out is Bugs. Aye Davanita is a nice little instrumental but I don't usually feel the need to hear it. Pry. To is not an inappropriate introduction to Corduroy, although it isn't necessary either. I never want to listen to stupid mop, but I can see how it fits and what they wanted to do with it. and on occasion I can see why Angus has the appreciation for it that he does. It came on a random shuffle the other day and when you go into it fresh it can be powerful.


Plus I don't really think of stupid mop as a song. So the fact that I don't enjoy it doesn't matter as much. And it's at the end of the album so I can ignore it. I can always stop no code at present tense but it feels like cheating in a way skipping stupid mop doesn't. It's also 3 songs, where stupid mop is just one track (albeit a long one)