Red Mosquito

stip wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

theplatypus wrote:"Puzzles and Games" would've been a cheap, tawdry power ballad. I like what they did with "Light Years" so much more.

so much this

it would have been our next iteration of Betterman or Given to Fly, and would have been amazing.

Seriously? You're nuts, man. There's certainly similarities to GTF in Puzzles and Games, but it's not really all that interesting. The best parts are the ones that were lifted with minor alteration and used to form the "Light Years" that we got.

stip wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

theplatypus wrote:"Puzzles and Games" would've been a cheap, tawdry power ballad. I like what they did with "Light Years" so much more.

so much this

it would have been our next iteration of Betterman or Given to Fly, and would have been amazing.

Who gave stip the crazy pills?

stip wrote:Examples? Other than the hideous lyrics in MFS, of course

The finger-pointing is kind of a result of my bigger issue with his angle as a songwriter. In twenty-three years, I have a hard time thinking of any instances where he really looks in the mirror and takes himself on. The closest we've seen is Off He Goes, which finds him looking at himself from the third person and thinking "Man, I've got it rough." The older he gets, the more his total lack of self-awareness just seems like a glaring fault. He really does seem more and more "invented" as the years go on.

There is a difference between not being comfortable with or effective at writing from a standpoint of personal self evaluation and being a phony.

Eddie's strongest skill as a writer has always been empathy, not insight

He is pretty comfortable at writing about how Jesus-like he is. It starts to ring hollow when he can't look at the other side of the coin.

That's interesting; it never occurred to me, so I can't really say that it's negatively affected my opinion on his lyrics, but it is true that he's never really had that, admittedly cliched, "Blood on the Tracks" kind of self reflection.

Lament wrote:He is pretty comfortable at writing about how Jesus-like he is. It starts to ring hollow when he can't look at the other side of the coin.

he hasn't written a song like that since Given to Fly. That was 16 years and 5 albums ago. Also it was like one song.

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:He is pretty comfortable at writing about how Jesus-like he is. It starts to ring hollow when he can't look at the other side of the coin.

he hasn't written a song like that since Given to Fly. That was 16 years and 5 albums ago. Also it was like one song.

No, it's a pretty common theme. He's got all the answers and either no one will listen or he's gonna yell until you do (or just do it himself or some shit like that because he is gonna give himself up for your good). It happens in Save You. Life Wasted. The Fixer. Amongst the Waves. Which is fine, but without the other side of the coin at a certain point it just starts to seem really lacking in self-awareness. I'm not saying anyone else should feel the same way, but I personally have an issue with it. I'd have the same issue with other artists I love, whether it be U2 or Bruce Springsteen or the Manics or Pete Townshend or even someone like Kanye West if they didn't exhibit the ability to look at themselves in the mirror and stare all of their personal ugliness in the face. He's not the only artist who I take issue with avoiding the topic this deep into their career. He may be the one where it bothers me the most though, since he spends far more time on the other side of the coin than any of them.

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:He is pretty comfortable at writing about how Jesus-like he is. It starts to ring hollow when he can't look at the other side of the coin.

he hasn't written a song like that since Given to Fly. That was 16 years and 5 albums ago. Also it was like one song.

No, it's a pretty common theme. He's got all the answers and either no one will listen or he's gonna yell until you do (or just do it himself or some shit like that because he is gonna give himself up for your good). It happens in Save You. Life Wasted. The Fixer. Amongst the Waves. Which is fine, but without the other side of the coin at a certain point it just starts to seem really lacking in self-awareness. I'm not saying anyone else should feel the same way, but I personally have an issue with it. I'd have the same issue with other artists I love, whether it be U2 or Bruce Springsteen or the Manics or Pete Townshend or even someone like Kanye West if they didn't exhibit the ability to look at themselves in the mirror and stare all of their personal ugliness in the face. He's not the only artist who I take issue with avoiding the topic this deep into their career. He may be the one where it bothers me the most though, since he spends far more time on the other side of the coin than any of them.

The End
All or None
Thumbing My Way(to an extent)
Parting Ways

Yeah, I don't get that reading in any of those songs. There's no real fault laid on anyone in Parting Ways. They're breaking up, but they're afraid to admit it to each other. "A chin of stone, a heart of clay" isn't exactly intense self-exploration. All or None reads like a Myth of Sisyphus type situation without casting any real blame on himself. He almost hints at it, but then walks away and plays the role of the good soldier. Thumbing My Way is 99% about how sad he is that his woman left, with a single hint that maybe it was his fault. And I don't see The End as being about anything other than the fact he's going to die someday.

Granted, these are probably the closest he gets to really being self-critical, and that in itself almost proves my point.

Like I said, I don't expect this to necessarily bother anyone else the way it bothers me. But this really is something that I see as a line in the sand when looking at the greatness of various writers.

All of those are him admitting faults as a human being.

"To myself i surrender, to the one I'll never please"

"its my fault for having caught a sickness in my bones..."

He's taking stock at his faults and how it affects his life/relationships etc. I think these are the exact things you feel are missing but for some reason are talking yourself out of.

[edited as I don't think this post was terribly well expressed.]

Aside from a few aurally pleasing lines, I've never found anything remarkable about Ed's lyrics. His voice is an integral part of the band's sound but the words themselves have always been more functional to me than anything profound.

At the risk of providing an easy set up for intense stippage, I think I actually more often enjoy Ed singing Jeff or Stone's lyrics than his own.

Catching "a sickness" isn't an act that carries blame with it. Once again, his flaws are out of his control. It's something that happens to you.

Look, I know this is gonna infuriate a lot of people here, but I don't care. This is a dude who spent most of the 90s (and I loved him for it at the time as much as anyone) being a diva, and at times a petulant piece of shit. A lot of artists are that way when they're that age. But the Dylans and Springsteens and Bonos of the world get to a point where they look back and take themselves to task for it. I personally think this is a huge part of growing and staying relevant as a writer. I'm sure a lot of people don't. There's nothing in Pearl Jam's catalog where Ed owns up to himself the way Bono does on something like Gone or New York or Springsteen does on Better Days or One Step Up. Ed is constantly a guy who is just a victim of circumstance or misfortune in his music.

Townshend wrote about going from seeing "magic & paint" to "recycling trash." Bono confessed to hurting those around him only to find out that what he "thought was freedom is just greed." Springsteen admitted to pretending as "a rich man in a poor man's shirt." These are all the kinds of things we've never heard (and probably will never hear) Ed level at himself. Which is kinda funny, since all of those things probably apply to him on some level or other. As time goes by, Ed is incapable of stepping off the cross for just a verse.

I think the lyrics for All Or None were actually by Stone, with some help from Ed (a la Fatal).

Lament wrote:Catching "a sickness" isn't an act that carries blame with it.

"Here's the selfless confession" is such an arrogant line, regardless of who wrote it.

And I say that as someone who thinks All or None is a pretty great song.

stip wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

theplatypus wrote:"Puzzles and Games" would've been a cheap, tawdry power ballad. I like what they did with "Light Years" so much more.

so much this

it would have been our next iteration of Betterman or Given to Fly, and would have been amazing.

Agreeing with Stip is hard to do folks, but sometimes I must. This is one of those times.

Lament wrote:"Here's the selfless confession" is such an arrogant line, regardless of who wrote it.

And I say that as someone who thinks All or None is a pretty great song.

I also always saw that tune as being a bit more of an outward looking, somewhat political song. I'm not sure if it even applies to being an illustration of Ed turning a mirror on himself.

Yelling Jesus is the worst kind of Jesus.

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:He is pretty comfortable at writing about how Jesus-like he is. It starts to ring hollow when he can't look at the other side of the coin.

he hasn't written a song like that since Given to Fly. That was 16 years and 5 albums ago. Also it was like one song.

No, it's a pretty common theme. He's got all the answers and either no one will listen or he's gonna yell until you do (or just do it himself or some shit like that because he is gonna give himself up for your good). It happens in Save You. Life Wasted. The Fixer. Amongst the Waves. Which is fine, but without the other side of the coin at a certain point it just starts to seem really lacking in self-awareness. I'm not saying anyone else should feel the same way, but I personally have an issue with it. I'd have the same issue with other artists I love, whether it be U2 or Bruce Springsteen or the Manics or Pete Townshend or even someone like Kanye West if they didn't exhibit the ability to look at themselves in the mirror and stare all of their personal ugliness in the face. He's not the only artist who I take issue with avoiding the topic this deep into their career. He may be the one where it bothers me the most though, since he spends far more time on the other side of the coin than any of them.

I really think you're reaching with some of this stuff, Lament. Save You is essentially an updated, slightly more proactive version of habit--wanting to stop someone from self-destructing, especially someone who has done the same for you (you helped me when I was down/I'll help when you're down). If this is what a martyr complex means to you then you've essentially defined the term out of existence. There is nothing in that song about self sacrifice in the sense that you mean (I must bear the weight of your sins/only I can save you)--just a refusal to give up on people and a willingness to face demons together (which has been a part of his writing forever, and something pretty admirable, I think). The critical moments in this song are about we, not I. There's even a self-referential nod in like the second lyric which at least tangentially acknowledges the hubris in trying to help other people, without denying its importance.


Life Wasted, while ham handed in a lot of places, is pretty close to the song you were complaining he wasn't writing. Life Wasted isn't about saving other people. It's him confronting the angry disaffected grunge sterotype, and recognizing that he was wrong about a lot of it. It's about empowerment, not salvation. And it's not about him having answers as much as it is a call for people to wake up and find strength in themselves (as he did). In some respects it's continuing where a song like Alive left off.

The Fixer is another song about personal empowerment--about not surrendering 'fight to get it back again', not letting yourself get dragged down by the darkness around you. Like much of Backspacer it's a refutation of the doom and gloom elements of the early and middle records, a middle finger to whatever demons he was grappling with.

I guess amongst the waves is the closest to a song about a jesus complex post given to fly, since it has some rebirth imagery in it, but again it's not a song about him taking away other people's suffering or healing their wounds. It's a song that is celebrating finding the strength to put your past behind you to clear the space to love in the present and future. Maybe that's an obnoxious message, but it's one he's been writing about from the very beginning, and it's not the same thing as telling people how to live.


These are not songs of martyrdom. They're song about someone who survived, and has discovered that they were right to hold onto their conviction that there was a destination worth reaching. 'If I knew where it was I would take you there...there's much more than this'. The last two albums (although elements of this appear prior) are really written from the standpoint who thinks they found it, and wants to share it with other people like they promised. that's really not the same thing as claiming you have all the answers, especially when you consider how these types of songs are offset by songs grappling with a fear of loss (just breathe, the end, speed of sound, sirens, future days, etc).

Now if you don't think these songs are well written that's an entirely different story. I'm just think you've mischaracterized them, and I certainly don't think they call the authenticity of earlier work into question. They're a reaction to the earlier songs reflecting the evolution that comes with a life lived. Considered in that way, I do think they're more self aware then you've given them credit for. I don't think Eddie writes as well when he's writing directly about himself (there are exceptions, obviously) but at the same time the 'character' songs Eddie writes are almost always attempts for him to write about himself one step removed. In that sense most of the catalog is Eddie doing precisely what you've claimed he isn't. And these songs you've mentioned are a critique and refutation of the excess present in the earlier songs tendencies to wallow in their pain, even if those songs have all, at their core, had that sense of striving to rise above it.


I hope that made some sense.