Red Mosquito

Kevin Davis wrote:I get that "three chords and the truth" vibe from the 2003 tour but not so much from the songs on "Riot Act." Despite being very clearly spurred on by world events, I think "Riot Act" is an almost uncharacteristically inward-looking album for PJ, and nothing about Eddie's vocals on the album suggest that he cares whether you pay any attention to the words. I think the lyrical down spots on that album are just instances of clunky writing, not conscious attempts at un-sugarcoating the words to deliver a message ("Bushleaguer" has more of a message than anything and it's about the floweriest thing Eddie has written). It doesn't always have to be poetry, destined to be read off the page as one would a Tennyson poem, but one would nonetheless hope them to be artful, as they are art -- a means to express "the truth" beyond simply a rote recitation of true statements, an endeavor which does not require art.

I don't know. I guess define "artful." I don't see why the occasional truth statement doesn't belong in a song. Or can't be effective for being just a rote statement of truth. Maybe I'm getting what you're saying exactly. I guess why can't a statement like "corporations rule the day" be a rote statement and artistic? I don't see how, assuming one could find one, saying the same thing in a more "artful" way improves the song so much that it's worth citing it as a clumsy or poor line as its written.

durdencommatyler wrote:I guess define "artful." I don't see why the occasional truth statement doesn't belong in a song. Or can't be effective for being just a rote statement of truth.

It can be, dct -- and I especially think an occasional line like that can be a real punch to the gut when juxtaposed with more careful wordplay and more lucid imagery (you hear it a lot in rap lyrics). You can certainly artfully employ that which on its own terms might be relatively artless. I don't think there are any hard-and-fast rules for things that work or don't work in songwriting 100% of the time, and for what it's worth I don't really have any issues with that "corporations rule the day" lyric. I can understand Stip objecting to it presumably on the grounds that it sounds like an unsophisticated, obvious critique of American society that could easily be arrived at by any teenage punk band, but it doesn't offend me -- it's one line in a song that doesn't really call out to be heard. Like most of "Undone," it sounds like one item on a grocery list of things Eddie is reminding himself of as he drives to the polling place.

But when I think of those "three chords and the truth"-type songs -- which, again, I don't think fits as a description of "Riot Act," or really of any of PJ's music apart from a few Eddie solo tracks -- what I mean by wishing the music to be "artful" is that I would hope the music could frame its point in a way that transcends how I could have understood it from a newspaper or TV or some other nonmusical source. Whether that means the lyricist rewording the message in a more poetic way, or the band lighting a fire under the words in a way that stirs passion and impels action, or the melody simply being catchy enough to get the point stuck in your head like glue -- again, there is no fail-safe formula, but as a bigger fan of music than of messages I want there to be something. At the far end of the "artless message" spectrum are songs like "No More," which are as good of an argument as any for the opposite.

Hey KD, if I gave you an article to read about the life of the universe, would you be able to read it and then describe it in your style of writing? I'd pay you.

Kevin Davis wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I guess define "artful." I don't see why the occasional truth statement doesn't belong in a song. Or can't be effective for being just a rote statement of truth.

It can be, dct -- and I especially think an occasional line like that can be a real punch to the gut when juxtaposed with more careful wordplay and more lucid imagery (you hear it a lot in rap lyrics). You can certainly artfully employ that which on its own terms might be relatively artless. I don't think there are any hard-and-fast rules for things that work or don't work in songwriting 100% of the time, and for what it's worth I don't really have any issues with that "corporations rule the day" lyric. I can understand Stip objecting to it presumably on the grounds that it sounds like an unsophisticated, obvious critique of American society that could easily be arrived at by any teenage punk band, but it doesn't offend me -- it's one line in a song that doesn't really call out to be heard. Like most of "Undone," it sounds like one item on a grocery list of things Eddie is reminding himself of as he drives to the polling place.

Love this post, by the by. Especially the final line.

I may have misunderstood Stip's initial point. If he was, as you put it, "objecting to it presumably on the grounds that it sounds like an unsophisticated, obvious critique of American society that could easily be arrived at by any teenage punk band" then, yeah, I see his point and I have no objections either. But it didn't seem to me like that's what he was saying, especially once I asked for clarification about it. So, that's my bad.

Also, totally agree with and love the description "a song that doesn't really call out to be heard. regarding Undone.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:Hey KD, if I gave you an article to read about the life of the universe, would you be able to read it and then describe it in your style of writing? I'd pay you.

How big of a project we talking here, Ruddo?

Kevin Davis wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:Hey KD, if I gave you an article to read about the life of the universe, would you be able to read it and then describe it in your style of writing? I'd pay you.

How big of a project we talking here, Ruddo?

nevermind. I don't want to ruin my love of your writing with something that has context that I won't understand no matter who explains it to me.

Before this goes any further, I would like to say that I think we should differentiate between "flowery" and "artful."

If I'm using the phrase artful I probably mean something pretty close to skillful in a clever/surprising/moving/thought provoking sort of way.

Flowery is something closer to elaborate and descriptively wordy. Which can, of course, be good or bad.

tragabigzanda wrote:

stip wrote:If I'm using the phrase artful I probably mean something pretty close to skillful in a clever/surprising/moving/thought provoking sort of way.

Flowery is something closer to elaborate and descriptively wordy. Which can, of course, be good or bad.

We are in agreement.

Okay, but your grading system, in your own words, is judging "floweriness."

That's why I wanted to state that those things are different.

No worries. I just wanted to try and use the same vocabulary here. Seems like we're on the same page.

Bushleaguer, for sure.

This guided tour of Lightning Bolt is making me want to listen to Riot Act.

bada wrote:This guided tour of Lightning Bolt is making me want to listen to Riot Act.

Lol. me too, i cued it right up and its just as great as i remember.

We need a return of Mind Your Tanners now, more than ever.