Red Mosquito

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 2:42 pm**

"Go" is about a truck, so anything's a real possibility.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 2:56 pm**

harmless wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
harmless wrote:PJ are not a very good live band. Stop living in denial, and then we can begin the discussion about live versions vs. studio.
I think that depends on how you're measuring what makes a "good live band".
In terms of comparing live / studio versions, musicianship. In terms of the simple fact of standing there and playing their instruments and their songs with skill and craftsmanship, they don't measure up to what they used to be. They can work a crowd, they can build an atmosphere, they can give thousands of people a great time. All of which distract us from really listening to the (more often than not) diminished quality of the actual playing.

I don't think fatefully reproducing a studio recording live is a good enough rule of thumb here. It never was in rock and it's not always negative.
I agree with the rest but i think it's partially a trade off of not having a fixed setlist. I think that with time musicians and especially singers who are used to play arenas take the bad acoustics in consideration and sing/play accordingly. I think they're aware of how bad you're actually hearing them so they don't bother. No one sings and plays with bootlegs in mind. For singers it may even be a trick to save their voices on demanding tours.
Another thing is overdubs exist ever since live albums do and not always to mirror a studio recording.
I think PJ isn't a band that is about giving musician fans much satisfaction. I don't think they ever were about that not even from a song writing point of view. They've never been about virtousism or experimentation even.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 2:58 pm**

harmless wrote:For me, I'm not sure if the "Nothing Left" part of UK totally undoes anything good it does lyrically. Overall I'd probably say LB was better, if only because I think it's fun to speculate about the intent of the song. I also think it's more layered (albeit in a less-than-spectacularly profound way): it's about a girl and / or 'mother nature' and / or a surfboard. There's quite a bit of interesting metaphor going on there, even if it's muddled, and the "It's not about a girl" theory holds up when you look at what the lyrics are doing.

with the major caveat that I haven't really looked at LB's lyrics outside of a few listens of the song, and whle the 'nothing left bridge is one of the weaker parts of UK, there are some really wonderful moments in the song

feel the sky blanket you in gems and rhinestones
see the path cut by the moon for you to walk on
see the waves on distant shores awaiting your arrival
dream the dreams of other men/you'll be no one's rival

and the music does a really nice job elevating those moments.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:02 pm**

Mine wrote:
harmless wrote:
Birds in Hell wrote:
harmless wrote:PJ are not a very good live band. Stop living in denial, and then we can begin the discussion about live versions vs. studio.
I think that depends on how you're measuring what makes a "good live band".
In terms of comparing live / studio versions, musicianship. In terms of the simple fact of standing there and playing their instruments and their songs with skill and craftsmanship, they don't measure up to what they used to be. They can work a crowd, they can build an atmosphere, they can give thousands of people a great time. All of which distract us from really listening to the (more often than not) diminished quality of the actual playing.
I don't think fatefully reproducing a studio recording live is a good enough rule of thumb here. It never was in rock and it's not always negative.
I agree with the rest but i think it's partially a trade off of not having a fixed setlist. I think that with time musicians and especially singers who are used to play arenas take the bad acoustics in consideration and sing/play accordingly. I think they're aware of how bad you're actually hearing them so they don't bother. No one sings and plays with bootlegs in mind. For singers it may even be a trick to save their voices on demanding tours.
Another thing is overdubs exist ever since live albums do and not always to mirror a studio recording.
I think PJ isn't a band that is about giving musician fans much satisfaction. I don't think they ever were about that not even from a song writing point of view. They've never been about virtousism or experimentation even.

I take a lot of your points, and agree with them. That last paragraph? I don't know; they were never a 'virtuoso' live band, but a musician's band? Certainly during the Dave A era, and also during most of the Jack Irons era, and hey, I'll be generous and say the start of the Matt era, you could trust them to put on a very good musical performance quite consistently. You have to say that over-familiarity with the songs, and perhaps a bit of boredom, might be to do with the fact that they're more deliberately lazy now. I agree that amazing musicianship is not a requirement or a given in rock music, and so I generally forgive PJ for not always being right on the ball. But I do sometimes get nostalgic for the times when I loved this band for being the best modern rock musicians around. It used to be easy to demolish accusations that PJ were just a dumb jock's rock band. Me and a bunch of musician friends used to enjoy sitting and analysing their music, including their live performances. Now... it's not really worth doing; better to turn off your critical faculties, sit back and 'rock out'. Which is fine, honestly, but it's not (only) what I went in for all those years ago.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:04 pm**

stip wrote:
harmless wrote:For me, I'm not sure if the "Nothing Left" part of UK totally undoes anything good it does lyrically. Overall I'd probably say LB was better, if only because I think it's fun to speculate about the intent of the song. I also think it's more layered (albeit in a less-than-spectacularly profound way): it's about a girl and / or 'mother nature' and / or a surfboard. There's quite a bit of interesting metaphor going on there, even if it's muddled, and the "It's not about a girl" theory holds up when you look at what the lyrics are doing.
with the major caveat that I haven't really looked at LB's lyrics outside of a few listens of the song, and whle the 'nothing left bridge is one of the weaker parts of UK, there are some really wonderful moments in the song

feel the sky blanket you in gems and rhinestones
see the path cut by the moon for you to walk on
see the waves on distant shores awaiting your arrival
dream the dreams of other men/you'll be no one's rival

and the music does a really nice job elevating those moments.

I agree, that's a great verse. I think I'm just gutted that such a great build up never reaches the climax it deserves.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:09 pm**

I suppose in terms of musicianship, while PJ were never the innovative prog rock band, neither were they the messy garage band a la The White Stripes etc. Even when they flirted with the messy garage band sound, they were tighter and more nuanced than that. Some of us fans really liked their more messy garage band tendencies, and I didn't really. They just grew on me and became tolerable. I was much more into the strongly rehearsed studio performances like 'Go' or 'RVM'. That 'Go' intro was not written or performed by a dumb, lazy band. It's clever and really difficult to pull off properly. Obviously they have those moments throughout their career, so this isn't a 'I want the Ten era back' post. I just think the idea that PJ were never a polished and professional live band is wrong.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:26 pm**

harmless wrote:I suppose in terms of musicianship, while PJ were never the innovative prog rock band, neither were they the messy garage band a la The White Stripes etc. Even when they flirted with the messy garage band sound, they were tighter and more nuanced than that. Some of us fans really liked their more messy garage band tendencies, and I didn't really. They just grew on me and became tolerable. I was much more into the strongly rehearsed studio performances like 'Go' or 'RVM'. That 'Go' intro was not written or performed by a dumb, lazy band. It's clever and really difficult to pull off properly. Obviously they have those moments throughout their career, so this isn't a 'I want the Ten era back' post. I just think the idea that PJ were never a polished and professional live band is wrong.

I agree that they were polished live and i agree that they aren't now.
I think that some would like them to at least hint at prog rock. I don't think that what some would like them to do in terms of songwriting would necessarily make them any better. An unusual chord progression/key change/song structure doesn't make a song better it just makes it more interesting for those who tend to rationalise music which it may as well be a consequence of being a musician.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:37 pm**

Mine wrote:
harmless wrote:I suppose in terms of musicianship, while PJ were never the innovative prog rock band, neither were they the messy garage band a la The White Stripes etc. Even when they flirted with the messy garage band sound, they were tighter and more nuanced than that. Some of us fans really liked their more messy garage band tendencies, and I didn't really. They just grew on me and became tolerable. I was much more into the strongly rehearsed studio performances like 'Go' or 'RVM'. That 'Go' intro was not written or performed by a dumb, lazy band. It's clever and really difficult to pull off properly. Obviously they have those moments throughout their career, so this isn't a 'I want the Ten era back' post. I just think the idea that PJ were never a polished and professional live band is wrong.
I agree that they were polished live and i agree that they aren't now.
I think that some would like them to at least hint at prog rock. I don't think that what some would like them to do in terms of songwriting would necessarily make them any better. An unusual chord progression/key change/song structure doesn't make a song better it just makes it more interesting for those who tend to rationalise music which it may as well be a consequence of being a musician.

I actually agree with this more as I get older. It was all about the surprise, when I was a bit younger. Now I want music to create me a mood, to lift my spirits when I'm down, or even to capture something like depression, even if it's not trying to make it better. Some of my favourite songs do this without being startlingly clever, and PJ are becoming that for me. Some songs, like Thumbing My Way, I'm full aware are not 'clever'. They're even somewhat clichéd, maybe even twee. But they have a powerful, personal atmosphere that transports me to a place and really captures the way I've felt about life. Same with Just Breathe, however twee and clichéd it was. I'm hoping Future Days does the same; the lyrics are twee, but they're also meaningful, and I don't think twee and meaningful are mutually exclusive anymore.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 3:59 pm**

harmless wrote:
I agree, that's a great verse. I think I'm just gutted that such a great build up never reaches the climax it deserves.

the piano kills it.
Someone needs to shoot BoB in his right wrist.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 4:03 pm**

Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:
I agree, that's a great verse. I think I'm just gutted that such a great build up never reaches the climax it deserves.
the piano kills it.
Someone needs to shoot BoB in his right wrist.

I lol'ed.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 4:05 pm**

Thejambi wrote:
Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:
I agree, that's a great verse. I think I'm just gutted that such a great build up never reaches the climax it deserves.
the piano kills it.
Someone needs to shoot BoB in his right wrist.
I lol'ed.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 4:26 pm**

harmless wrote:
stip wrote:
harmless wrote:For me, I'm not sure if the "Nothing Left" part of UK totally undoes anything good it does lyrically. Overall I'd probably say LB was better, if only because I think it's fun to speculate about the intent of the song. I also think it's more layered (albeit in a less-than-spectacularly profound way): it's about a girl and / or 'mother nature' and / or a surfboard. There's quite a bit of interesting metaphor going on there, even if it's muddled, and the "It's not about a girl" theory holds up when you look at what the lyrics are doing.
with the major caveat that I haven't really looked at LB's lyrics outside of a few listens of the song, and whle the 'nothing left bridge is one of the weaker parts of UK, there are some really wonderful moments in the song

feel the sky blanket you in gems and rhinestones
see the path cut by the moon for you to walk on
see the waves on distant shores awaiting your arrival
dream the dreams of other men/you'll be no one's rival

and the music does a really nice job elevating those moments.
I agree, that's a great verse. I think I'm just gutted that such a great build up never reaches the climax it deserves.

I think there's a different issue, and it is similar to Amongst the Waves. Both of these songs are basically plateaus. They stay in the same space for essentially the whole song. Amongst your Waves doesn't sufficiently peak from its verses, and UK essentially jumps right to a climax and never leaves it. And since both songs linger in the same space for so long it hurts them, since there's no movement. If these were soundscape songs like of a girl or sleight of hand it wouldn't matter, since those songs are written to linger in one place. But these songs aren't. L-bolt has the movement amongst the waves and unthought known lacked.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 4:27 pm**

what the hell does twee mean?

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 4:38 pm**

LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:20 pm**

harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.

Wait till you learn what they call chips

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:20 pm**

Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.
Wait till you learn what they call chips

I don't think I want to.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:23 pm**

harmless wrote:
Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.
Wait till you learn what they call chips

I don't think I want to.

fuh-rench fuh-riiiiiise!

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:25 pm**

Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:
Lounge Lizard wrote:
harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.
Wait till you learn what they call chips

I don't think I want to.
fuh-rench fuh-riiiiiise!

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:25 pm**

harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.

Only the homos.

Posted: **Wed August 14, 2013 5:26 pm**

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:
harmless wrote:LOL do Americans not use 'twee'? It's a really common word here. It means overly cute and sentimental.
Only the homos.

But the homophobes understand the word, right?

Red Mosquito

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