Red Mosquito

mattyv1908 wrote:

Leatherhead wrote:I kinda feel like DM is always in a hurry.

edit: Yea, I just listened to the whole album and it goes by so quickly. It needs 2 more songs. Even some filler/segue tracks would probably do just fine.

It needs Pendulum in the place of Something Special and a 2024 ARC immediately following it.

This is a hard album for me to ingest. While I really enjoy it, today while my entire music library was on shuffle for a two and a half hour drive Sleight of Hand came on and it’s miles better than any single song on this album. I understand that’s an extremely hot take at this moment of time but I will die on that hill.

Mind you I think this is a strong collection of songs and worthy of the forums acclaim. It’s what Lightning Bolt should have been. It’s not top shelf PJ though. It is a late career album that deserves the recognition it’s received without a hint of apology.

that is a very RM opinion. Fortunately 95% of the people in thr world who share it post here

every song on dark matter is so far ahead of sleight of hand for me. nothing on dark matter sounds like aural homework

but if thats really what you want, Dark Matter has no atmospheric naval gazing. Its not that they tried and failed. its just not there - outside the great Upper Hand intro and incredible Stevie outro (both of whichh are better than Sleight of Hand). Its probably the only flavor of pearl jam absent

warehouse wrote:

stip wrote:my younger brother is a knowledgeable casual fan - knows their music, likes them, but not devoted to them. he just got around to the album a few days ago. Thus far Wreckage and Dark Matter are his two favorites, so good choice on the singles I suppose

his two favorite artists are Radiohead and REM for context

so we can trust his taste

a couple of reasons the 90s comparison get brought up are 1) guitar solos and 2)EV's vocal delivery. watt said he made it a point to try to include a guitar solo in every song. i'm not sure if there's a technique thing going on with what vedder is doing, but he sounds like he's holding notes longer. Waiting for Stevie highlights some of the best things about this voice. it seems like he's doing cool vocal outros more on this record, too.

100% agreed. The most 90s things about this record are: 1) Ed's sustaining of notes, especially in his mid-upper fourth octave sweet spot, like he would do on Ten, 2) Mike's solos being given full opportunity to take the song into the stratosphere, without caring about song length, and 3) Ed's voice soaring over Mike's wailing guitar in the outro.

Waiting for Stevie encapsulates these aspects better than any other single song on DM.

stip wrote:

mattyv1908 wrote:

Leatherhead wrote:I kinda feel like DM is always in a hurry.

edit: Yea, I just listened to the whole album and it goes by so quickly. It needs 2 more songs. Even some filler/segue tracks would probably do just fine.

It needs Pendulum in the place of Something Special and a 2024 ARC immediately following it.

This is a hard album for me to ingest. While I really enjoy it, today while my entire music library was on shuffle for a two and a half hour drive Sleight of Hand came on and it’s miles better than any single song on this album. I understand that’s an extremely hot take at this moment of time but I will die on that hill.

Mind you I think this is a strong collection of songs and worthy of the forums acclaim. It’s what Lightning Bolt should have been. It’s not top shelf PJ though. It is a late career album that deserves the recognition it’s received without a hint of apology.

that is a very RM opinion. Fortunately 95% of the people in thr world who share it post here

every song on dark matter is so far ahead of sleight of hand for me. nothing on dark matter sounds like aural homework

but if thats really what you want, Dark Matter has no atmospheric naval gazing. Its not that they tried and failed. its just not there - outside the great Upper Hand intro and incredible Stevie outro (both of whichh are better than Sleight of Hand). Its probably the only flavor of pearl jam absent

You said pretty much what I would. I appreciate Sleight of Hand a lot more today than when I first heard it, but man, I find it unbelievable that people would consider it better than every song on DM. Just doesn't compute, for me. I guess that's what it means when people say art is subjective.

I mean Sleight of Hand has zero references to potatoes. Running has 4!

I can't imagine comparing this whole album with one song to begin with, but especially Sleight of Hand; stylistically they're going for different things -- some people need to start repeating to themselves "we can have both" in the mirror every morning before breakfast

Revelator wrote:To me, and I'm probably oversimplifying, but it's the first album since Riot Act where it sounds like the entire band was part of the creative process. I wouldn't say it sounds like one of their 90's albums, but there are elements (energy, anthems, Mike's Guitar tone, Ed soaring instead of screeching constantly, etc) that I haven't felt authentically from a PJ album for ~20 years. Hard to put into words after a long ass work day

The recording of Avocado seems to be similar to Dark Matter, although obviously missing the Andrew Watt factor. I definitely prefer Dark Matter.

From Avocados Wiki page:

For the first time since 1993's Vs., the band members did not go into the recording sessions with any completed songs, only guitar riffs. Vedder admitted that the band "really went in with nothing". The band sat around playing music together and discussed the song arrangements, and in just one week had completed ten songs. Ament described it as a "real collaborative effort", and Vedder described it as "absolute democracy

Ms Harmless wrote:I can't imagine comparing this whole album with one song to begin with, but especially Sleight of Hand; stylistically they're going for different things -- some people need to start repeating to themselves "we can have both" in the mirror every morning before breakfast

this is a good and fair point

I mean, it’s a completely different concept than Sleight of Hand and hard to compare really. There’s a certain energy and passion bordering on joy in the playing on Dark Matter, and Sleight of Hand is moody in the opposite direction, yet obviously no less inspired.

I've always loved Sleight of Hand but yeah in no way do i think its better than everything on DM.

lecherouslittlestump wrote:

Revelator wrote:To me, and I'm probably oversimplifying, but it's the first album since Riot Act where it sounds like the entire band was part of the creative process. I wouldn't say it sounds like one of their 90's albums, but there are elements (energy, anthems, Mike's Guitar tone, Ed soaring instead of screeching constantly, etc) that I haven't felt authentically from a PJ album for ~20 years. Hard to put into words after a long ass work day

The recording of Avocado seems to be similar to Dark Matter, although obviously missing the Andrew Watt factor. I definitely prefer Dark Matter.

From Avocados Wiki page:

For the first time since 1993's Vs., the band members did not go into the recording sessions with any completed songs, only guitar riffs. Vedder admitted that the band "really went in with nothing". The band sat around playing music together and discussed the song arrangements, and in just one week had completed ten songs. Ament described it as a "real collaborative effort", and Vedder described it as "absolute democracy

Avocado starts and ends strong (I know I'll get shit for the second half of that take) but the middle section with Unemployable/Gone/Big Wave/Army Reserve is a bit of a weird rut. Unemployable and Army Reserve aren't bad songs, but sonically, they almost sound like they came from another session and got thrown onto the album. Gone and Big Wave aren't particularly strong.

I don't feel like Dark Matter has an out of place song on it; Something Special is the closest but given the overall themes that run throughout the album, it's not all that out of place.

Not every stylistic detour explored in a band's oeuvre has to be expressed on every record?

Madness, I tells ya!

Avocado´s sessions feel similar to DM yeah

I haven't seen this mentioned, so please delete if I missed it, but is anyone else also really happy with DM's packaging?

Both of my "Gigaton" CD/LP copies have the worst wear and tear of any PJ album I own, and that's saying something considering I barely use or listen to those copies. The CD cover is literally peeling off.

yeah my DM CD is great

Sometimes I wonder if "better than" is the most commonly typed phrase on RM. I bet it's close if not #1.

"Sleight of Hand" exists in a universe of PJ music for me that Dark Matter is not likely to find its way into, and that's not closed-mindedness or a criticism the record -- it's just an acknowledgment that a 3-week-old album has a lifetime of connections to establish, excitements to foster, sadnesses to console, and feelings to affirm before my heart and brain can even begin to register it similarly to a 24-year-old song that has been with me through multiple eras of my life, some of which have felt painfully close to the scenario laid out by the lyrics.

Dark Matter is a really good album, made by a band that I have a lifelong fondness for, and it is contextualized and informed by that lifelong fondness. Right now I am experiencing it with an excitement and a sense of newness that I count among the great joys of being a fan. But for now, that's it. I really have no idea how to meaningfully compare it to other things in their catalog yet (and TBH I feel similarly about Gigaton, even after 4 years).

Kevin Davis wrote:Sometimes I wonder if "better than" is the most commonly typed phrase on RM. I bet it's close if not #1.

"Sleight of Hand" exists in a universe of PJ music for me that Dark Matter is not likely to find its way into, and that's not closed-mindedness or a criticism the record -- it's just an acknowledgment that a 3-week-old album has a lifetime of connections to establish, excitements to foster, sadnesses to console, and feelings to affirm before my heart and brain can even begin to register it similarly to a 24-year-old song that has been with me through multiple eras of my life, some of which have felt painfully close to the scenario laid out by the lyrics.

Dark Matter is a really good album, made by a band that I have a lifelong fondness for, and it is contextualized and informed by that lifelong fondness. Right now I am experiencing it with an excitement and a sense of newness that I count among the great joys of being a fan. But for now, that's it. I really have no idea how to meaningfully compare it to other things in their catalog yet (and TBH I feel similarly about Gigaton, even after 4 years).

I completely feel this.

"Sleight of Hand" came into my life in the summer of 2000. It was the first year I stopped playing AAU basketball, and my parents were quick to make me get a job to fill up my time. I quickly realized my so-called 'friends' from ball only were that if I were still playing. They had already begun finding out about my drumming and guitar playing outside of basketball and were just as quick to make jokes about it. So, I was about to be a junior in high school with almost zero friends. It was a lonely summer, but also a cool one. I would drive around Choctaw at night, playing "Binaural" incessantly. I literally felt like the man in the song, carrying on but unsure where the fuel was coming from. 

What's the timeline of the first session with Watt. I was struck in the Bill Simmons interview the Ed kind of happened into recording an album with Watt, felt concerned that the members of PJ would potentially be upset and then invited them down.

Was that first session with PJ, in Watt's basement, before Ed finished recording Earthlings?

I think seeing the rebuttals and who they came from confirms my opinion. In my ten years of lurking, I always thought Stip was one of the most dedicated people on this message board with the consistently worst musical positions. I guess it takes all types…

Pearl Jam is at their most average when they’re most accessible. I understand simple arrangements and obvious melodies in familiar time signatures are apparently some people’s bread and butter on this forum. I just think there’s other artists who do that type of thing superior to this band.

Now, you take a 5/8 time signature (or 25/8 if you take all verse measures as one) and butt it up next to a 4/4 chorus crescendoing back into an atmospheric verse that sounds like the whole song could come apart at any second and yet doesn’t despite all the disjointed pieces and you have the Pearl Jam that did these types of things better than any of their peers. Sleight of Hand is song only Pearl Jam could make. Dark Matter, for as successfully as they pulled it off, is essentially generic pop with PJ flavoring.

mattyv1908 wrote:I think seeing the rebuttals and who they came from confirms my opinion. In my ten years of lurking, I always thought Stip was one of the most dedicated people on this message board with the consistently worst musical positions. I guess it takes all types…

Pearl Jam is at their most average when they’re most accessible. I understand simple arrangements and obvious melodies in familiar time signatures are apparently some people’s bread and butter on this forum. I just think there’s other artists who do that type of thing superior to this band.

Now, you take a 5/8 time signature (or 25/8 if you take all verse measures as one) and butt it up next to a 4/4 chorus crescendoing back into an atmospheric verse that sounds like the whole song could come apart at any second and yet doesn’t despite all the disjointed pieces and you have the Pearl Jam that did these types of things better than any of their peers. Sleight of Hand is song only Pearl Jam could make. Dark Matter, for as successfully as they pulled it off, is essentially generic pop with PJ flavoring.

I am 99% sure this is not true. And it's not that Sleight of Hand is too complex for me to understand, despite the hopefully unintended implication that it is. But to Ms. Harmless' earlier point (and others), there are a lot of flavors to pearl jam. I think Pearl Jam pulls of anthematic soaring (pop adjacent, perhaps) rock music better than anyone else. Other bands can better satisfy my sleight of hand itch.

But pearl jam has soaring anthems and dark mood pieces. They have ear worms and songs that take 20 listens to unpack. They have open hearted rock songs and seething rock songs. Stuff that is playful and stuff that is deathly serious. After 12 albums and 30+ years there's a pretty decent well of all these types of songs in the catalog.

With these caveats, folks can prefer some types of songs more than the other, but it's hard to compare Waiting for Stevie and Sleight of Hand. They are vastly different songs trying to achieve very different things. I generally prefer your WFS vs SoH, but it's not fair to ding SOH for not being WFS (and vice versa). The more interesting conversation is probably how songs fair within their lanes. How does WFS compare to Amongst the Waves. How does Breakerfall compare to Scared of Fear? How does Sleight of Hand compare to Pendulum? Even though there are distinctions and these are not the same songs, they are generally trying to get to the listener to a relatively similar emotional or intellectual space.

mattyv1908 wrote:I think seeing the rebuttals and who they came from confirms my opinion. In my ten years of lurking, I always thought Stip was one of the most dedicated people on this message board with the consistently worst musical positions. I guess it takes all types…

Pearl Jam is at their most average when they’re most accessible. I understand simple arrangements and obvious melodies in familiar time signatures are apparently some people’s bread and butter on this forum. I just think there’s other artists who do that type of thing superior to this band.

Now, you take a 5/8 time signature (or 25/8 if you take all verse measures as one) and butt it up next to a 4/4 chorus crescendoing back into an atmospheric verse that sounds like the whole song could come apart at any second and yet doesn’t despite all the disjointed pieces and you have the Pearl Jam that did these types of things better than any of their peers. Sleight of Hand is song only Pearl Jam could make. Dark Matter, for as successfully as they pulled it off, is essentially generic pop with PJ flavoring.

the thing I hate about this argument is that if you want weird time signatures and polyrhythms, Pearl Jam was *always* at the most accessible end of what that means in a rock band; to act like Pearl Jam were ever more than a meat and potatoes rock band that at certain spots in their career (very little of it, in the grand scheme of things) dabbled in weirdness, is wishful thinking at best and pretentious garbage at worst; Pearl Jam is not a sonically challenging band, weighed up against even Tool (and I don't really like Tool), let alone Meshuggah or Dillinger Escape Plan