Red Mosquito

Kevin Davis wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Solo songwriting is not a great approach for them

Maybe not anymore, but their catalog is more colorful and flavorful for the fact that, at various times throughout their lifespan, individual songwriters have been able to bring in things which were entirely their own vision, without having to filter it collectively through the whole to reach some democratically agreed-upon middle. Eddie and Mike are great at what they do but I am happy that not all of Stone, Jeff, and Matt’s creative impulses have been filtered through them. I am glad that songs like “Pilate” and “Rival” and “ATY” weren’t joint band compositions. I like the single-voice quirks that have the potential to come from the individual writers; the band gives them enough of a collective voice by performing them.

To everything there is a season, and maybe now their best stuff comes from working just as they did on DM. That’s fine with me. But, I’m glad it’s not the only way they’ve worked, as I think it would have come at the expense of multiple songs I love.

do you think songs like that could emerge from a collaborative writing process, or do you suppose they are products of a singular vision?

Kevin Davis wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Solo songwriting is not a great approach for them

Maybe not anymore, but their catalog is more colorful and flavorful for the fact that, at various times throughout their lifespan, individual songwriters have been able to bring in things which were entirely their own vision, without having to filter it collectively through the whole to reach some democratically agreed-upon middle. Eddie and Mike are great at what they do but I am happy that not all of Stone, Jeff, and Matt’s creative impulses have been filtered through them. I am glad that songs like “Pilate” and “Rival” and “ATY” weren’t joint band compositions. I like the single-voice quirks that have the potential to come from the individual writers; the band gives them enough of a collective voice by performing them.

To everything there is a season, and maybe now their best stuff comes from working just as they did on DM. That’s fine with me. But, I’m glad it’s not the only way they’ve worked, as I think it would have come at the expense of multiple songs I love.

I don’t disagree, and I think that they learned a lot of lessons from songwriting that make them better today.

But I also think that the benefits of songwriting in isolation were most pronounced early in the journey, when they were play-by-instinct guys who were discovering the power to craft songs on their own (see: Pilate). Later on, when they had been at-home writers for long enough that THAT was their lens, it put a layer of too-much-thinking on everything…even when they were trying to build songs by jamming (self-titled). They turn lose the horses….and the horses all stay in their lanes.

The last two records have both managed to reintroduce the old “run on impulse” approach, to different degrees. And maybe that’s part of what makes them (especially this one) feel kind of old fashioned, even though it really isn’t.

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Solo songwriting is not a great approach for them

Maybe not anymore, but their catalog is more colorful and flavorful for the fact that, at various times throughout their lifespan, individual songwriters have been able to bring in things which were entirely their own vision, without having to filter it collectively through the whole to reach some democratically agreed-upon middle. Eddie and Mike are great at what they do but I am happy that not all of Stone, Jeff, and Matt’s creative impulses have been filtered through them. I am glad that songs like “Pilate” and “Rival” and “ATY” weren’t joint band compositions. I like the single-voice quirks that have the potential to come from the individual writers; the band gives them enough of a collective voice by performing them.

To everything there is a season, and maybe now their best stuff comes from working just as they did on DM. That’s fine with me. But, I’m glad it’s not the only way they’ve worked, as I think it would have come at the expense of multiple songs I love.

do you think songs like that could emerge from a collaborative writing process, or do you suppose they are products of a singular vision?

I don’t think they would have been the same. When writing as a group I think Eddie tends to take on both the lyrics and the vocal melody (and that is admittedly a guess, but a fair one I think), and he writes differently than the other guys in the band. I’m glad we have his voice in the mix too, but the range of their catalog has been well-served by making space for other creative voices to enjoy moments of singular prominence. I would hate to lose that entirely; 3 of my 4 favorite Gigaton-era songs were all non-Eddie songs (“Buckle Up,” “TTLW,” “Get It Back”), so I think it is an approach that still yields unique results. I realize not everyone likes that corner of PJ’s songbook as much I do.

I am glad there is space for those detours. I used to resent them a bit

Kevin Davis wrote:

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Solo songwriting is not a great approach for them

Maybe not anymore, but their catalog is more colorful and flavorful for the fact that, at various times throughout their lifespan, individual songwriters have been able to bring in things which were entirely their own vision, without having to filter it collectively through the whole to reach some democratically agreed-upon middle. Eddie and Mike are great at what they do but I am happy that not all of Stone, Jeff, and Matt’s creative impulses have been filtered through them. I am glad that songs like “Pilate” and “Rival” and “ATY” weren’t joint band compositions. I like the single-voice quirks that have the potential to come from the individual writers; the band gives them enough of a collective voice by performing them.

To everything there is a season, and maybe now their best stuff comes from working just as they did on DM. That’s fine with me. But, I’m glad it’s not the only way they’ve worked, as I think it would have come at the expense of multiple songs I love.

do you think songs like that could emerge from a collaborative writing process, or do you suppose they are products of a singular vision?

I don’t think they would have been the same. When writing as a group I think Eddie tends to take on both the lyrics and the vocal melody (and that is admittedly a guess, but a fair one I think), and he writes differently than the other guys in the band. I’m glad we have his voice in the mix too, but the range of their catalog has been well-served by making space for other creative voices to enjoy moments of singular prominence. I would hate to lose that entirely; 3 of my 4 favorite Gigaton-era songs were all non-Eddie songs (“Buckle Up,” “TTLW,” “Get It Back”), so I think it is an approach that still yields unique results. I realize not everyone likes that corner of PJ’s songbook as much I do.

I love those 3 songs you pointed out. TTLW and Buckle Up have each been played 7 times live. Get it Back never. For contrast, Quick Escape has been played 28 times. I worry the big potential problem with songs that don't originate live together is that they may not have that lived-in feel for the band as a whole, and then can end up either getting somewhat ignored live, or not being played as well live. There are absolutely a number of songs that defy this concern (for me personally, "You Are," a concert favorite, comes to mind). Still, I think one of the great strengths of Dark Matter so far has been that the songs sounded live on the record and thus, appropriately, they sound like what we expect (or better) in concert. Perhaps blending the two approaches is key. When recording, keep it live and jammy, but lean into keeping the integrity of some demo numbers each member presents.

My ideal songwriting formula for any future albums would be exactly what they did with Dark Matter, plus one Matt song.

Side a Wottman and the boys
Side b Matt songs

coptheriotact wrote:Side a Wottman and the boys
Side b Matt songs

Perfect!

I still enjoy every song on this album. No skips but at the same time I have to keep going back to the Scared of Fear > React, Respond > Wreckage stretch. Those are my top three on the album.

new rankings

Waiting for Stevie -5
Scared of Fear - 5
Wreckage -4.5
Dark Matter -4.5
Setting Sun -4.5
Running (and I am not sorry about it!) -4
React, Respond -4
Upper Hand -4
Wont Tell -4
Something Special -4
Got to Give -4

stip wrote:new rankings

Waiting for Stevie -5
Scared of Fear - 5
Wreckage -4.5
Dark Matter -4.5
Setting Sun -4.5
Running (and I am not sorry about it!) -4
React, Respond -4
Upper Hand -4
Wont Tell -4
Something Special -4
Got to Give -4

This is kind of shocking Upper hand and won't tell.

stip wrote:new rankings

Waiting for Stevie -5
Scared of Fear - 5
Wreckage -4.5
Dark Matter -4.5
Setting Sun -4.5
Running (and I am not sorry about it!) -4
React, Respond -4
Upper Hand -4
Wont Tell -4
Something Special -4
Got to Give -4

So I think it’s fair to say that our appreciation of this band comes from opposite ends of the spectrum. I’m not sure how the numbers are calculated but in my mind a 5 would be an absolute top 20 track in their entire catalog and a 1 would be a song I would find unacceptable for Pearl Jam and worthy of only lesser bands. So here it goes.

Setting Sun - 4.5
Upper Hand - 4.5
Got to Give - 4
Wreckage - 4
React, Respond - 3.75
Scared of Fear - 3.75
Waiting For Stevie - 3.5
Won’t Tell - 3.5
Dark Matter - 3.5
Running - 3
Something Special - 3

For a point of reference for you here’s Binaural

Breakerfall - 4
God’s Dice - 4
Evacuation - 3.5
Light Years - 4.5
Nothing as it Seems - 5
Thin Air - 4.5
Insignificance - 5
Of the Girl - 4.75
Grievance - 4
Rival - 3.75
Sleight of Hand - 5
Soon Forget - 2
Parting Ways - 3.75

For an additional point of reference. My father text me out of the blue that he was listening to Dark Matter and loved several songs. For context, he’s 72 living in northern Idaho as a culturall Christian conservative musician who’s only musical outlet had been his church band as a bass player for the last 10 years.

He thinks Waiting for Stevie, Wreckage, Got to Give and Setting Sun are all fantastic songs in his opinion. For at 70+ year old who recommends new music to his teenage granddaughters ( Record Company, St Paul & the Broken Bones, Marcus King Band, Etc.) I find this intel extremely informative for the casual listener. I advised him to check out some of their back catalog with this recent exchange. Hoping to share more.

React Respond
SOF

Wreckage

Got to give
Upper hand
Won't tell

Dark matter
Running
Setting Sun


WFS

Something special

R,R is a 5, something special is a 3.

Won't Tell
Upper Hand
Running
Got To Give
Setting Sun

Scared of Fear
Wreckage.
Waiting For Stevie

React, Respond
Dark Matter
Something Special

I don't dislike a single song here, and I don't skip any songs. It's a full run through every time.

Wreckage
React, Respond
Scared of Fear
Won't Tell
Got to Give

Running
Setting Sun

Waiting for Stevie
Upper Hand
Dark Matter
Something Special

mattyv1908 wrote:

stip wrote:new rankings

Waiting for Stevie -5
Scared of Fear - 5
Wreckage -4.5
Dark Matter -4.5
Setting Sun -4.5
Running (and I am not sorry about it!) -4
React, Respond -4
Upper Hand -4
Wont Tell -4
Something Special -4
Got to Give -4

So I think it’s fair to say that our appreciation of this band comes from opposite ends of the spectrum. I’m not sure how the numbers are calculated but in my mind a 5 would be an absolute top 20 track in their entire catalog and a 1 would be a song I would find unacceptable for Pearl Jam and worthy of only lesser bands. So here it goes.

Setting Sun - 4.5
Upper Hand - 4.5
Got to Give - 4
Wreckage - 4
React, Respond - 3.75
Scared of Fear - 3.75
Waiting For Stevie - 3.5
Won’t Tell - 3.5
Dark Matter - 3.5
Running - 3
Something Special - 3

For a point of reference for you here’s Binaural

Breakerfall - 4
God’s Dice - 4
Evacuation - 3.5
Light Years - 4.5
Nothing as it Seems - 5
Thin Air - 4.5
Insignificance - 5
Of the Girl - 4.75
Grievance - 4
Rival - 3.75
Sleight of Hand - 5
Soon Forget - 2
Parting Ways - 3.75

For an additional point of reference. My father text me out of the blue that he was listening to Dark Matter and loved several songs. For context, he’s 72 living in northern Idaho as a culturall Christian conservative musician who’s only musical outlet had been his church band as a bass player for the last 10 years.

He thinks Waiting for Stevie, Wreckage, Got to Give and Setting Sun are all fantastic songs in his opinion. For at 70+ year old who recommends new music to his teenage granddaughters ( Record Company, St Paul & the Broken Bones, Marcus King Band, Etc.) I find this intel extremely informative for the casual listener. I advised him to check out some of their back catalog with this recent exchange. Hoping to share more.

For me, a 5 star song is the very best of the band. Something that feels like it could be a top 20 song, even if there are more than 20. a classic id measure against their best songs from any era.

A 4 is great.

A 3 is a song I like if it comes up but rarely seek out

A 2 is a skip unless its a full album liste

A 1 is a song i actively dislike


I suspect I am coming from a different side of the spectrum. I dont hold the No Code to Binaural run in rarefied esteem, and I generally like my pearl jam less introspective. I like the immediacy and accessibility of their catharsis, when everything is up front and directly engaged. i think it plays to their strengths as musicians and its what they do better than anyone. Its not that i dont like their naval gazing, inwars facing moments. I love most of what this band does. but compartively speaking…

Here is my binaural rankings overlaid against yours

Breakerfall - 4 3.5
God’s Dice - 4 2.5
Evacuation - 3.5 2
Light Years - 4.5 3.
Nothing as it Seems - 5 4
Thin Air - 4.5 3
Insignificance - 5 4
Of the Girl - 4.75 3
Grievance - 4 4
Rival - 3.75 4
Sleight of Hand - 5 2
Soon Forget - 2 2
Parting Ways - 3.75 3.5

That is a conservative ranking. almost half these songs can shift half a star up on the right day.


For further comparison, here is conservative backspacer

Gonna See My Friend: 4
Got Some: 3.5
The Fixer: 4
Johnny Guitar: 4
Just Breathe: 3.5
Amongst the Waves: 4
Unthought Known: 3.5
Supersonic: 2
Speed of Sound: 3.5
Force of Nature: 4
The End: 3.5

again a bunch of these songs could shift half a star on the day.

How this is shaking out for me:

Top tier:

Wreckage
React, Respond
Won't Tell
Got to Give

Mid-tier

Upper Hand
Running
Setting Sun

Bottom tier

Scared of Fear
Waiting for Stevie
Something Special
Dark Matter

Out of those in the upper tier, Got to Give has grown on me a lot from first listen, while the other three were pretty much instant winners.

Scared of Fear has probably dropped the most over time, I can't shake that the chorus reminds me (musically) of early 00s emo punk-pop. I think maybe it's those ascending octave chords?

are your tiers within the context of the album or catalog?

So far I guess:

Upper Hand
Waiting For Stevie
Setting Sun
Wreckage
Scared of Fear
React, Respond
Dark Matter
Got to Give
Won’t Tell
Running
Something Special

But I like all of them!

stip wrote:are your tiers within the context of the album or catalog?

The former.

I think we're beyond a late period (being very liberally defined as post-Binaural) song really being able to break into that personal upper echelon of Pearl Jam songs at this stage, even though I'm pretty fond of a few.

Unemployable is definitely up there, as are Cropduster and In The Moonlight (I'm detecting a theme). Marker in the Sand, Who Ever Said, Dance of the Clairvoyants, Take the Long Way and Get It Back also in the conversation.

I think many of those above would definitely sneak into a top 30 or 40 somewhere but not crack the top 10-15.

I'm not yet willing to put anything on Dark Matter in that range.