Red Mosquito

Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

Take the points!

Electromatic wrote:Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

I'm not saying you should take Denver laying points, but surely "Brady 10 Manning 4" isn't the best way to make that decision...

4/5 wrote:

Electromatic wrote:Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

I'm not saying you should take Denver laying points, but surely "Brady 10 Manning 4" isn't the best way to make that decision...

yeah thats a good point.

Interesting take: Seven out of eight NFL personnel men would rather have Brady vs. Manning, but that depends on when you ask the question...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1922 ... itle-games

1. NFL's view of Brady vs. Manning

This is not going to be yet another column ranting about who is better: Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

Oh, wait, hold on. It sorta is.

We'll compare in a much different way, at least. I asked a group of eight people—all NFL personnel men, including scouts and one general manager—whom they preferred: Brady or Manning. They were guaranteed anonymity so as not to anger Brady or Manning.

The sample size is small, no question. Yet it is also instructive. My guess is these results would extrapolate across football.

The question was simple: Who do you think is a better quarterback, Manning or Brady? I emphasized that I was asking not who will be better in the future, but who is better now. Right now.

The answer was 7-1 Brady.

Then I asked the personnel men to step into their TARDIS, go back a year, and answer the same question. That is, it's the 2012-13 season. Who would you pick? The result was 6-2 Brady.

Then, they were asked to go back five years. The vote was 4-4.

Overall, there was a central theme among the voters: While Manning is a more physically gifted thrower, Brady is the better overall quarterback because he has done more with less.

This is the reason Manning gains more support as we go back in time. Brady has continued to win with less around him (mostly), a trend that has been consistent for much of his career (mostly). Manning has won less with more. He's more physically gifted than Brady and has also consistently had better players around him.

The voters also pointed to how, when Brady and Manning went head-to-head, with Manning usually possessing the superior team, Brady still won. Brady has beaten Manning 10 of the 14 times they've met.

Brady has been to eight AFC title games, including three straight. Last week's playoff win over Indianapolis was Brady's 18th, putting him two ahead of Joe Montana for the most in NFL history.

Please, do not read this as Manning bashing. It is not. In talking to an admittedly small pool of NFL team executives, there is awe at what Manning has done. It's just that there is more awe at Brady's accomplishments.

It's your classic Wilt Chamberlain versus Bill Russell argument: One gets more impressive statistical numbers, but the other wins more. Who would you take?

"When you think about Peyton Manning, you think about numbers," former Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis said recently on ESPN. "When you think about Tom Brady, you think about championships."

It's a fun argument, but one that's also totally unsolvable. The only way to answer the question is generate an alternate reality, have them switch teams, and then see what happens. But alas, we don't have that technology. Yet.

manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

thats a terrible example. the main reason the giants won those super bowls was b/c of their defense.

in a team sport like football, there is no way coaching can be overrated. but its much easier to say brady is better than manning when ignoring the coaches.

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

It also only really considers the quality of offensive talent around those guys, not usually the defense. NE won their 3 Super Bowls with quality defenses (the first year was a middle of the road, by DVOA, defense during the season, but had the best performance in the SB overall) and by the years they went back-to-back they were essentially the best defense in football.

The Colts had some teams that ultimately had solid defenses, but they were never an elite, league-leading unit. The Patriots 2005-2012 look a lot to me like those Colts teams. Offensively superior but ultimately coming up short of titles. In any one-game scenario that can be for any number of reasons (the 08 Patriots and 09 Colts looked like the better team in those respective Super Bowls, but lost anyway).

It's pointless to deny that Manning has been disappointing in some (not all) of his surprising playoff losses. Brady has been, too, but he won enough early on that it's basically impossible to stick him with the same label.

I agree Bellichick is probably the biggest X factor never brought up in these comparisons.

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

thats a terrible example. the main reason the giants won those super bowls was b/c of their defense.

in a team sport like football, there is no way coaching can be overrated. but its much easier to say brady is better than manning when ignoring the coaches.

I agree. Look at what BB has been able to do with this NE team despite their raft of injuries and lost players. That's exactly what Coughlin couldn't do in NY this year.

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

thats a terrible example. the main reason the giants won those super bowls was b/c of their defense.

in a team sport like football, there is no way coaching can be overrated. but its much easier to say brady is better than manning when ignoring the coaches.

So many variables: coaching, lack of receivers/weapons, how good is the defense, special teams, luck, and on and on and on. But somehow, despite all of these variables we do end up with quarterbacks in this league that are better than others.

Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever. No one disagrees (virtually no one). Jordan also had one of the best coaches ever, too.

At the end of the day, when both Manning and Brady are done, I think the clearer choice will be Brady. Right now, perhaps it's a toss up. I think we need more data before any conclusion is drawn.

mray10 wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

thats a terrible example. the main reason the giants won those super bowls was b/c of their defense.

in a team sport like football, there is no way coaching can be overrated. but its much easier to say brady is better than manning when ignoring the coaches.

I agree. Look at what BB has been able to do with this NE team despite their raft of injuries and lost players. That's exactly what Coughlin couldn't do in NY this year.

Dude, Eli's record breaking interceptions this year is something that no coach could overcome.

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:manning is a more physically gifted thrower? uh, im gonna disagree with this one.

also, i find it interesting in these comparisons that coaches are never brought up, but teammate are. brady has had arguably the best coach in the history of the nfl coaching him his entire career. everyone seems to forget that, or conveniently ignore it, when comparing him to manning.

also, wilt>russell

I think that coaching is overrated in these "best player" discussions. For example:

Tom Coughlin wins two Super Bowls with Eli Manning, who is playing great.

Tom Coughlin, that same guy, has a disastrous season with Eli this year, as Eli failed to play up to his high level. Did Coughlin somehow become less of a good coach? No, it's all about the QB's performance.

thats a terrible example. the main reason the giants won those super bowls was b/c of their defense.

in a team sport like football, there is no way coaching can be overrated. but its much easier to say brady is better than manning when ignoring the coaches.

So many variables: coaching, lack of receivers/weapons, how good is the defense, special teams, luck, and on and on and on. But somehow, despite all of these variables we do end up with quarterbacks in this league that are better than others.

Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever. No one disagrees (virtually no one). Jordan also had one of the best coaches ever, too.

At the end of the day, when both Manning and Brady are done, I think the clearer choice will be Brady. Right now, perhaps it's a toss up. I think we need more data before any conclusion is drawn.

phil jackson is no doubt a great coach, but the effect a coach has on a game is much, much greater in football than in basketball. and tom brady has had the best coach his entire career. they should go into the HOF together.

Oh, I forgot to say this earlier: Wes Welker's new helmet made him look like Dark Helmet:

4/5 wrote:

Electromatic wrote:Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

I'm not saying you should take Denver laying points, but surely "Brady 10 Manning 4" isn't the best way to make that decision...

Oh I won't be risking any money, I just find it odd, that so many people are. I'm not sure this game can really be evaluated very easily.

ha welker.

Electromatic wrote:

4/5 wrote:

Electromatic wrote:Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

I'm not saying you should take Denver laying points, but surely "Brady 10 Manning 4" isn't the best way to make that decision...

Oh I won't be risking any money, I just find it odd, that so many people are. I'm not sure this game can really be evaluated very easily.

ha welker.

So much this. I could see a Denver blowout win. A Pats blowout win. Or, a close game decided at the end on a fluke call or last second TD pass or field goal. I guess that's what makes this week so much fun leading up to both games, especially the DEN-NE tilt.

Coach wrote:So much this. I could see a Denver blowout win. A Pats blowout win. Or, a close game decided at the end on a fluke call or last second TD pass or field goal. I guess that's what makes this week so much fun leading up to both games, especially the DEN-NE tilt.

With the exception of IND/NE I would have said the same for all of the playoff games this year.

Coach wrote:

Electromatic wrote:

4/5 wrote:

Electromatic wrote:Brady 10 Manning 4 the last 14 tries and I'm supposed to believe that Denver is 4.5 pts better at home?

I'm not saying you should take Denver laying points, but surely "Brady 10 Manning 4" isn't the best way to make that decision...

Oh I won't be risking any money, I just find it odd, that so many people are. I'm not sure this game can really be evaluated very easily.

ha welker.

So much this. I could see a Denver blowout win. A Pats blowout win. Or, a close game decided at the end on a fluke call or last second TD pass or field goal. I guess that's what makes this week so much fun leading up to both games, especially the DEN-NE tilt.

Most of the results I see end with me being despondent.

Green Habit wrote:Oh, I forgot to say this earlier: Wes Welker's new helmet made him look like Dark Helmet:

I miss Don Beebe

Chris_H_2 wrote:

Green Habit wrote:Oh, I forgot to say this earlier: Wes Welker's new helmet made him look like Dark Helmet:

I miss Don Beebe

it was actually Mark Kelso, not Don Beebe