Red Mosquito

spike wrote:

Mecca wrote:

spike wrote:

Mecca wrote:

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

probably not, cuz he'd be Jon Stark

right, but wouldn't the son of the eldest son of the mad king have more claim than a stark?

the explanation I have goes too much into book reader theory to post in the show thread, so I'll spoiler tag it and try to keep it least spoilery

Spoiler: show

Jon is very likely a Targ, but the circumstances of his birth aren't very well known. He's a bastard in many people's eyes no matter which way you cut it because Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell, even if Valyrians practiced polygamy. Even is he has a Targ father, Stannis is only legally legitimizing him as Stark if he did take the deal, so his claim as a Targ would only be as a bastard. A legitimate son of a Targaryean would have a better claim than a bastard. Either way, if a claim is disputed, it pretty much comes to war and whoever wins gets the claim. I doubt Jon would want war over something he probably never wanted, whereas being a Stark was always his desire

Spoiler: show

good point. if jon was legitimized as either, it doesn't seem his character would be motivated to rule all of westeros anyway.

Spoiler: show

Who were you calling a nerd, spike?

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

spike wrote:

Mecca wrote:

spike wrote:

Mecca wrote:

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

probably not, cuz he'd be Jon Stark

right, but wouldn't the son of the eldest son of the mad king have more claim than a stark?

the explanation I have goes too much into book reader theory to post in the show thread, so I'll spoiler tag it and try to keep it least spoilery

Spoiler: show

Jon is very likely a Targ, but the circumstances of his birth aren't very well known. He's a bastard in many people's eyes no matter which way you cut it because Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell, even if Valyrians practiced polygamy. Even is he has a Targ father, Stannis is only legally legitimizing him as Stark if he did take the deal, so his claim as a Targ would only be as a bastard. A legitimate son of a Targaryean would have a better claim than a bastard. Either way, if a claim is disputed, it pretty much comes to war and whoever wins gets the claim. I doubt Jon would want war over something he probably never wanted, whereas being a Stark was always his desire

Spoiler: show

good point. if jon was legitimized as either, it doesn't seem his character would be motivated to rule all of westeros anyway.

Spoiler: show

Who were you calling a nerd, spike?

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

wait. what? when did i miss this in the episodes (the last part)?

Chris_H_2 wrote:

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

wait. what? when did i miss this in the episodes (the last part)?

You didn't miss anything. It's pure speculation.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

wait. what? when did i miss this in the episodes (the last part)?

You didn't miss anything. It's pure speculation.

based on what? that's the part i'm missing.

spike's post make it sound as if this is something that's pretty much known. and without reading the books, i certainly haven't picked up on anything even remotely suggesting jon snow is a targaryen. the only thing i know is that melisandre thinks he has royal blood.

Not super spoilery, but put in the spoiler code for those who wish to ignore this stuff entirely.

Spoiler: show

Ned came back from Robert's Rebellion with Jon Snow, apparently his bastard. But Ned Stark was not the type to fuck around behind his wife's back, he has too much honor for that. During the rebellion, Lyana Stark was "raped" and then later apparently carried off by Rhaegar Targarean to the Tower of Joy where she died, or so the story goes as far as the victor's tell it. Lyana dies and on her death bed she asks Ned to promise her something, which he does. This promise haunts him until the end of his days, but no one knows what it is.

The speculation is Lyana was not raped, but slept with Rhaegar willingly and bore him a son. The speculation is Lyana made Ned promise ti raise the boy as his own to escape the fate of the other Targarean heirs.

The only people who know what happened, and thus know the truth of Jon's parentage, were at the showdown at the Tower of Joy where Lyana died. The only one of those people still alive is Howland Reed.

I may be simplifying it or leaving bits out, other book readers can expand on it or correct me.

everyone just calm down

Chris_H_2 wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:

spike wrote:hey nerds, if stannis legitimizes jon snow as a stark, does that weaken his claim to the throne as a targaryen?

wait. what? when did i miss this in the episodes (the last part)?

You didn't miss anything. It's pure speculation.

based on what? that's the part i'm missing.

spike's post make it sound as if this is something that's pretty much known. and without reading the books, i certainly haven't picked up on anything even remotely suggesting jon snow is a targaryen. the only thing i know is that melisandre thinks he has royal blood.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/0 ... 04058.html

So, spike just spoiled something for show-watchers that one would only know if they read the books or looked it up on the internet? Nice.

Kaius wrote:So, spike just spoiled something for show-watchers that one would only know if they read the books or looked it up on the internet? Nice.

it's all speculative.

Kaius wrote:So, spike just spoiled something for show-watchers that one would only know if they read the books or looked it up on the internet? Nice.

The nods and winks in the last episode for this particular plot point were just as strong--if not stronger--than anything from the books. I think it's analogous to what happened in season 1--if one of your show-watching-only friends said to you around episode 3, "Hey, I'm pretty sure Joffrey isn't Robert's son"--and they picked it up just from the way the characters looked, acted, and the fact that Jaime was schtooping Cersei, would you consider that a spoiler?

spike wrote:

Kaius wrote:So, spike just spoiled something for show-watchers that one would only know if they read the books or looked it up on the internet? Nice.

it's all speculative.

I just can't stress this enough. It's one possible theory. But, yes, it's totally speculative. Book readers don't know. TV watcher's don't know. There is more in the books maybe to support the theory, but everything that Pete laid out in that spoiler above has happened in the show.

So, you don't have to be a book reader to have theorized what spike has theorized. It's all there. But nothing is confirmed at this point. It's all speculation.

I see. Sorry spike.

Though the Lannister incest comparison is a bit off considering they were literally fucking on screen in the first episode.

Kaius wrote:I see. Sorry spike.

Though the Lannister incest comparison is a bit off considering they were literally fucking on screen in the first episode.

I guess the comparison to throw back at you would be almost like a photo-negative: could you ever see Ned fooling around with someone besides Catelyn?

Jon Snow might be interested in being the king if winter comes and he's the only person who can unite everyone against the White Walkers. I don't see him being very interested in going up against Stannis, Dany, and Cersei for no reason. But if his taking the throne can end that civil war and unify everyone against the White Walkers, he would do it. We've already seen him play fast and loose with the rules of his oath.

The Argonaut wrote:Jon Snow might be interested in being the king if winter comes and he's the only person who can unite everyone against the White Walkers. I don't see him being very interested in going up against Stannis, Dany, and Cersei for no reason. But if his taking the throne can end that civil war and unify everyone against the White Walkers, he would do it. We've already seen him play fast and loose with the rules of his oath.

yeah, but if taking the throne meant more war, I don't think it would be his prerogative

If this thing ends with Jon on the Throne it'll be fucking weird and totally out of character. Whatever else that guy wants, it isn't to be King.

Simple Torture wrote:

Kaius wrote:I see. Sorry spike.

Though the Lannister incest comparison is a bit off considering they were literally fucking on screen in the first episode.

I guess the comparison to throw back at you would be almost like a photo-negative: could you ever see Ned fooling around with someone besides Catelyn?

I get it, I do, but yeah, I could see it. He was newlywed, off at war, and fucked up. Not a stretch, even for a man of honor.

In the last episode, Littlefinger said that Ned didn't seem like the type.

This is gonna sound so totally pretentious, so I apologize. Please forgive me. But anyone who thinks Ned could have had an affair isn't paying attention to Game of Thrones. Literally, THIS. ENTIRE. MESS. comes about -- LITERALLY -- because he isn't that kinda dude.