Red Mosquito

McParadigm wrote:I too like the period of solo songwriting, and I agree that things get carried in that wouldn’t otherwise. I also think you’re espousing a romanticized view of that approach, especially with white album comparisons, but we all romanticize the things we love.

I don't mean to romanticize it, and the White Album comparison was really just meant as a general reference point -- a high-profile, recognizable example of another band that took a bunch of solo compositions (and performances, in their case) and put them through something of a full-band meat grinder to make something messy and imperfect but beautiful and unique. I certainly don't think "I Am Mine" and "Thumbing My Way" are the musical equivalents of "Dear Prudence" and "Mother Nature's Son" (even though the albums as wholes are equally special to me), nor do I think the circumstances surrounding the creation of the two records were comparable -- the Beatles were writing solo because there were tensions within the group, where Pearl Jam did so because they trusted each other enough to give each other that space (or at least, that is how it has seemed since Yield). But in the end I do think what attracts me to both records, apart from just liking both groups of songs a lot, is loosely the same -- a sort of unity-via-difference, everything-fits-because-nothing-does creative dumping ground. I have a disproportionate fondness for records like that, though -- they engage my brain and senses in a unique way, and in a lot of ways I think I identify with the somewhat directionless urge to just create without regard for final context that these albums embody.

So much of the PRAMG/modern Pearl Jam discussion on RM over the last 10-15 years has been centered around what Pearl Jam "needs to do," in regards to their creative process, in order to make good, inspired-sounding records again. Whatever it is, they've landed on something with Gigaton and Dark Matter that works (and, presumably, two different things that work, since very little about the creation of those two albums seems like it was similar in any way). I've surrendered the admittedly arrogant presumption that, if only they went back to a method that 20 years ago resulted in even better records (to me anyway), we'd somehow be getting records now that resonate with me in the same way. I doubt we would, and I'm more than happy with what they're putting out now. But I do miss the distinct creative voices of the other band members -- I'm glad Gigaton brought them back in small ways, and I hope it's not the last we've seen of them.

That all makes sense to me. And I didn’t mean to imply that you romanticized it in terms of the songwriting. I meant more that, as far as band interviews have suggested to us, the dominant and deciding voice in the room under that process is still very much Ed.

If he “feels” your demo, then it gets worked on. If he doesn’t, then it doesn’t.

In some ways, I think that approach gives him more of an authoritative voice than the jamming approach…because at least when the band is working together, he’s in a constant state of trying to fit into what they’re doing. He’s not giving your song a spin while he runs to pick up cigarettes in his car. He’s not put in a position to say “no, I don’t think that song fits with what I want to do.” He’s reaching for the song, not waiting to find a song that reaches him.

And there’s a mentality that goes along with that that I think affects other decision-making. Would he have approached Jeff’s demo of won’t tell in such a seeking way, if the work they were doing around it hadn’t put him in that mindset? Maybe. But I think it’s telling that it happened here and not before.

The “bring Ed your demos” approach also seemed to leave the other members shunting some of their most interesting writing into other projects…and certain key members just seemed increasingly absent and dispassionate about the whole thing.

warehouse wrote:best album since yield.

I'd totally agree if Binaural, Riot Act and Gigaton didn't exist.

McParadigm wrote:In some ways, I think that approach gives him more of an authoritative voice than the jamming approach…because at least when the band is working together, he’s in a constant state of trying to fit into what they’re doing. He’s not giving your song a spin while he runs to pick up cigarettes in his car. He’s not put in a position to say “no, I don’t think that song fits with what I want to do.” He’s reaching for the song, not waiting to find a song that reaches him.

Really interesting take, and probably true.

Fortunate that, after 12 albums and 33 years, we have the fruits of all of these different writing styles to choose from. What a long, strange trip etc. etc.

So to summarize, we have a bunch of RMers regularly falling into arguments about whether this is the best album since such-and-such, and then we have the album polls, that essentially show that taken as a whole, RM believes Dark Matter to be the best album since Yield if I'm not mistaken.

And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

Does peace come out of fighting?

RM clearly loves DM, but I do think the poll results are probably a bit deceiving -- some of the old albums have votes in there from people who no longer post here, and were compiled years and in some cases decades after the album's initial release. The DM poll results clearly reflect the initial enthusiasm that the board has had for the record, but...you should have seen some of the posts about Backspacer when it first came out.

That's not to stamp out anyone's fire -- I think it's a good record and I have no reason to think it won't continue to be generally liked. I just think these are still pretty early days.

McParadigm wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

Does peace come out of fighting?

All I know is...
We could be fighting together
Instead of fighting ourselves

RockPusher wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

Does peace come out of fighting?

All I know is...
We could be fighting together
Instead of fighting ourselves

“Start the rebuttal / All part of the game,” right after that, is one of my favorite delivery moments on the record.

Followed closely by the part in Waiting For Stevie where he sings (as far as I can tell) “words follow her down / bees? OOH shake em off / arrrrrgh”.

My favorite Ed moment right now is in Upper Hand right before it launches to the outro. The band drops out and Ed holds that "haaayyyaaa....nnnndddd". You can picture his eyes rolling to the back of the Ed, classic vedder. Gold.

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

I genuinely like this album (it's really strong and moving on so many levels) but I also held back posting about it a lot during that initial launch (other than outward praise of the things that I love about it) because I wasn't loving it to the same degree that others were and I didn't want my thoughts to be taken as yucking anyone's yum. I'm blown away how respectful RM was overall during that initial phase. I don't remember ever seeing that from the community at large before. It was really cool and helped me enjoy the album even more.

Strat wrote:My favorite Ed moment right now is in Upper Hand right before it launches to the outro. The band drops out and Ed holds that "haaayyyaaa....nnnndddd". You can picture his eyes rolling to the back of the Ed, classic vedder. Gold.

Wreckage has been playing in a few public places recently. This didn't happen with Dark Matter. I think it's going to have some legs ala Just Breathe.

Strat wrote:My favorite Ed moment right now is in Upper Hand right before it launches to the outro. The band drops out and Ed holds that "haaayyyaaa....nnnndddd". You can picture his eyes rolling to the back of the Ed, classic vedder. Gold.

It’s the best moment on the record followed closely by the fuck or arrgh at the end of Running. I picture that as a genuine response to Watt getting on his last nerve.

Monkey_Driven wrote:Wreckage has been playing in a few public places recently. This didn't happen with Dark Matter. I think it's going to have some legs ala Just Breathe.

For sure

And as probably the biggest JB stan here, Wreckage might just be better.

epilogue wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

I genuinely like this album (it's really strong and moving on so many levels) but I also held back posting about it a lot during that initial launch (other than outward praise of the things that I love about it) because I wasn't loving it to the same degree that others were and I didn't want my thoughts to be taken as yucking anyone's yum. I'm blown away how respectful RM was overall during that initial phase. I don't remember ever seeing that from the community at large before. It was really cool and helped me enjoy the album even more.

i kinda feel that happened because the album was praised and the shitters kinda had to move on.

VinylGuy wrote:

epilogue wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

I genuinely like this album (it's really strong and moving on so many levels) but I also held back posting about it a lot during that initial launch (other than outward praise of the things that I love about it) because I wasn't loving it to the same degree that others were and I didn't want my thoughts to be taken as yucking anyone's yum. I'm blown away how respectful RM was overall during that initial phase. I don't remember ever seeing that from the community at large before. It was really cool and helped me enjoy the album even more.

i kinda feel that happened because the album was praised and the shitters kinda had to move on.

That's definitely one way to put it.

McParadigm wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Strat wrote:And we needed more people shitting on it while others were enjoying it!

Because it's better to be upset than happy!

Does peace come out of fighting?

All I know is...
We could be fighting together
Instead of fighting ourselves

“Start the rebuttal / All part of the game,” right after that, is one of my favorite delivery moments on the record.

Followed closely by the part in Waiting For Stevie where he sings (as far as I can tell) “words follow her down / bees? OOH shake em off / arrrrrgh”.