Red Mosquito

Bi_3 wrote:Would you guys feel differently if you did not know of Watt’s involvement?

For me, the sound of the album bothers me more than Watts involvement. Its hard for me to get past the thin drum sounds, which seems so preventable. Listen to the drums on TOTD record. Why couldnt they set it up like that! Gigaton sounds phenomenal to me, does that make me like it more I should? Maybe.

And every producer has influence over the songs, but it does seem like Watt was heavily involved in that process. This is the first time an outsider actually contributed guitar parts that were a foundational part of a song.

Also, I just want to mention that I'm very grateful to get an album as good as Dark Matter 30+ years in to my fandom. I just don't think its as amazing as everyone else.

jtmack20 wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:Would you guys feel differently if you did not know of Watt’s involvement?

For me, the sound of the album bothers me more than Watts involvement. Its hard for me to get past the thin drum sounds, which seems so preventable. Listen to the drums on TOTD record. Why couldnt they set it up like that! Gigaton sounds phenomenal to me, does that make me like it more I should? Maybe.

And every producer has influence over the songs, but it does seem like Watt was heavily involved in that process. This is the first time an outsider actually contributed guitar parts that were a foundational part of a song.

Fair take.

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure that hypothetical hangs together for me.

Broadly understanding how music was created and something about the people involved in its creation is pretty integral to how I think about and enjoy music. The writing, the personnel, the recording process: all of that stuff contributes to the art.

I'd either have to imagine I'm someone who doesn't care about that information or a scenario where the band engaged in some kind of elaborate scheme to hide how the album was made.

I mean Love Boat Captain came from the collaboration with Boom. But for me, where this issue falls apart (though I don't think I care too much either way, as I don't think Pearl Jam albums are not usually emerging from hermetically sealed environments, and that's not a foundational part of how I think about the music), is that Andrew Watt's actual artistic output sounds nothing like this, and is generally terrible.

So as a producer, he picked up a guitar to help the band enter into and steer a conversation with themselves (as producers do) in an effort to help them remember their core and foundational strengths as artists (namely, their chemistry playing together). The most influential moment of this is Waiting For Stevie, but that riff (which is really good) is only a small part of what makes that song spectacular. It was the seed bed that the rest of the band grew the song out of (everyone's parts in that song are excellent).

If you think all a producer should do is set up mics and press record then I get why this is off putting, but that's never really been how Pearl Jam worked - at least with the Obrien records.

In the end, for me the results are what matter (which is fair ground to judge Watt on IMO, as there's a lot about Dark Matter that's good and not great), but I think it's hard to argue that at least the band views their collaboration with him as significantly different than what had gone on before; he shares writing credits on every song on the album, doesn't he? That's certainly never happened before.

BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well, but he goes by his given name, so he's all good.

Monkey_Driven wrote:BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well

As a co-writer?

Kevin Davis wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well

As a co-writer?

I'm not as familiar with the recording/producing process as many others here, but doesn't the crediting of songs come down to the individuals involved? Like, maybe BOB didn't want to be named? I just want to figure out who to blame for that god awful intro to Future Days.

digster wrote:In the end, for me the results are what matter (which is fair ground to judge Watt on IMO, as there's a lot about Dark Matter that's good and not great), but I think it's hard to argue that at least the band views their collaboration with him as significantly different than what had gone on before; he shares writing credits on every song on the album, doesn't he? That's certainly never happened before.

No, that's certainly new. And if in the end you don't love or like the songs there's no better basis on which to judge the success of something.

Monkey_Driven wrote:I'm not as familiar with the recording/producing process as many others here, but doesn't the crediting of songs come down to the individuals involved?

Generally yes, but in the end it's just whoever the band decides to credit, and sometimes that's not always reflective of who actually contributed to the authorship of the song. "Lennon/McCartney" is like this.

PJ are generally pretty clear about who wrote what, though with Vs., Vitalogy, and DM, they credit the whole band, even though we know to some extent that that's not really the case (Vitalogy especially has a handful of songs that are clearly Vedder compositions).

If BOB is credited on something, it probably means he actually worked on it, since it hasn't really been their practice to give their producer co-writer credits until Watt came along. If not, I'd imagine his contributions are limited to suggestions and minor instances of "composition," similar to how each band member kind of "writes" their own part (i.e. Mike's solos) even when they're not given author credit on the song.

I think the reason Watt kind of rubs people the wrong way is because he seems like the kind of producer that inserts himself into the creative process in a way that makes him feel like a bit of a fixer/song doctor-- not quite on the level of a Desmond Child or a Mutt Lange, but closer to their end of the spectrum than to, say, the Albini end, where the producer is basically just creating a documentary of the band.

Personally I'm way more bothered by the sound of the record than I am by the writing credits.

Kevin Davis wrote:Personally I'm way more bothered by the sound of the record than I am by the writing credits.

aw huh

epilogue wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Personally I'm way more bothered by the sound of the record than I am by the writing credits.

aw huh

Thirded

thats fair.

I think ST and Lightning Bolt sound worse, but third from the bottom isnt great

Dark Matter has been really hard for me to engage with on a lot of levels but the biggest is that it has physically hurt my ears. There are a ton of production choices on LB and ST that I don't love. But neither of them hurt me on headphones.

Monkey_Driven wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well

As a co-writer?

I'm not as familiar with the recording/producing process as many others here, but doesn't the crediting of songs come down to the individuals involved? Like, maybe BOB didn't want to be named? I just want to figure out who to blame for that god awful intro to Future Days.

One thing to consider is that Watt belongs to a new generation of producers, and nowadays it's become much more common for producers to negotiate for songwriting credit as part of compensation (this entitles them to a share of publishing royalties). Perhaps Watt's contributions aren't too dissimilar from BO'B's and they're just approaching the credit differently.

Jorge wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well

As a co-writer?

I'm not as familiar with the recording/producing process as many others here, but doesn't the crediting of songs come down to the individuals involved? Like, maybe BOB didn't want to be named? I just want to figure out who to blame for that god awful intro to Future Days.

One thing to consider is that Watt belongs to a new generation of producers, and nowadays it's become much more common for producers to negotiate for songwriting credit as part of compensation (this entitles them to a share of publishing royalties). Perhaps Watt's contributions aren't too dissimilar from BO'B's and they're just approaching the credit differently.

this is actually true, as he asks for that in probably all of his producing albums.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Jorge wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:BOB had a heavy hand in several songs as well

As a co-writer?

I'm not as familiar with the recording/producing process as many others here, but doesn't the crediting of songs come down to the individuals involved? Like, maybe BOB didn't want to be named? I just want to figure out who to blame for that god awful intro to Future Days.

One thing to consider is that Watt belongs to a new generation of producers, and nowadays it's become much more common for producers to negotiate for songwriting credit as part of compensation (this entitles them to a share of publishing royalties). Perhaps Watt's contributions aren't too dissimilar from BO'B's and they're just approaching the credit differently.

He can get paid streaming royalties perfectly fine without having his name in the liner notes though. So it feels more intentional than that.