Red Mosquito

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:Riot Act needs no reordering or cutting. That's crazy talk. It was their last coherent album.

FWIW, though, it always surprises me when people count 'I Am Mine' among the 'perfect' songs on the album. I think it's weaker, not among the weakest but top three? Not IMO.

what do you mean by coherent album?

Coherent is an adjective. It means "logically or esthetically ordered or integrated." Or "Having clarity or intelligibility."

It's pretty hard to argue that Riot Act is any more coherent than S/T or Backspacer. Those are both albums with a sonic unity (the songs sound of a piece) with clear themes running through each record.

stip wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:Riot Act needs no reordering or cutting. That's crazy talk. It was their last coherent album.

FWIW, though, it always surprises me when people count 'I Am Mine' among the 'perfect' songs on the album. I think it's weaker, not among the weakest but top three? Not IMO.

what do you mean by coherent album?

Coherent is an adjective. It means "logically or esthetically ordered or integrated." Or "Having clarity or intelligibility."

It's pretty hard to argue that Riot Act is any more coherent than S/T or Backspacer. Those are both albums with a sonic unity (the songs sound of a piece) with clear themes running through each record.

It's pretty hard to argue that.

In all seriousness though, I do think Riot Act is coherent, thematically. S/T wasn't, and its anti-war stance was jarring set against stupidities like Big Wave and Severed Hand (even though I like the latter). Was Backspacer coherent? Sort of, and I've written about that before. But Riot Act is at least as unified as that.

harmless wrote:In all seriousness though, I do think Riot Act is coherent, thematically. S/T wasn't, and its anti-war stance was jarring set against stupidities like Big Wave and Severed Hand (even though I like the latter). Was Backspacer coherent? Sort of, and I've written about that before. But Riot Act is at least as unified as that.

Well I think you can say that about Riot Act (I think it is coherent, but I think all PJ albums are coherent). S/T is an album full of stories about struggling with loss, with a mixture of personal and political stories, and the transition from political to personal. Plus Big Wave. But Big Wave isn't any more of an outlier than, say, You Are or Get Right.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:In all seriousness though, I do think Riot Act is coherent, thematically. S/T wasn't, and its anti-war stance was jarring set against stupidities like Big Wave and Severed Hand (even though I like the latter). Was Backspacer coherent? Sort of, and I've written about that before. But Riot Act is at least as unified as that.

Well I think you can say that about Riot Act (I think it is coherent, but I think all PJ albums are coherent). S/T is an album full of stories about struggling with loss, with a mixture of personal and political stories, and the transition from political to personal.

I don't know: 'full of stories...', 'mixture of...' etc. I'll buy the personal and political, possibly the way the political impacts upon the personal, but there's loads of different subjects on there and I'm not sure 'struggling with loss' encompasses them all.

stip wrote:Plus Big Wave. But Big Wave isn't any more of an outlier than, say, You Are or Get Right.

Hmmm... there's an argument I might struggle to debunk.

You guys are really breaking it down this morning ey?

Morning, nightmareblack0206.

2 things:

1) Is this going to be your schtick forever (?), because it's getting a bit boring.

2) If you don't want to be on a forum where everything PJ-related is dissected to death, I'd suggest the Pit.

Relax, take a xanax!

Just my way of saying good morning to all of you in this discussion/dissection.

I agree ST political undertone does actually hinder its overall depth. Riot Act to me has aged surprisingly well. It's very rich album IMO. Production values are off the charts

I had posted month back that RA was rushed by PJ to once and for all be rid of their contract with Sony Epic

The entire album was a wrap after 1 take!

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:In all seriousness though, I do think Riot Act is coherent, thematically. S/T wasn't, and its anti-war stance was jarring set against stupidities like Big Wave and Severed Hand (even though I like the latter). Was Backspacer coherent? Sort of, and I've written about that before. But Riot Act is at least as unified as that.

Well I think you can say that about Riot Act (I think it is coherent, but I think all PJ albums are coherent). S/T is an album full of stories about struggling with loss, with a mixture of personal and political stories, and the transition from political to personal.

I don't know: 'full of stories...', 'mixture of...' etc. I'll buy the personal and political, possibly the way the political impacts upon the personal, but there's loads of different subjects on there and I'm not sure 'struggling with loss' encompasses them all.

stip wrote:Plus Big Wave. But Big Wave isn't any more of an outlier than, say, You Are or Get Right.

Hmmm... there's an argument I might struggle to debunk.

I'm not going to focus on Riot Act (although I think the coherence is actually stronger on S/T, but it is there on Riot Act). Very briefly (since this is just a reprise of the guided tour thread):

The whole record is a more forceful taking stock of what the Bush years did to America, once you get past the shell shocked defeatism of Riot Act. It is a mixture of coming to grips with loss, either by learning to live with it or struggling to overcome it. The record is book ended by two songs about overcoming passivity/defeatism/feeling trapped. You have political songs like comatose, world wide suicide, unemployable, gone, and army reserve. Some are dealing with macro level critique (comatose abstractly), others are about personal loss (wws/army reserve) or social decline affecting individuals in a meaningful way (gone/unemployable. Severed Hand and Gone are about attempting to cope, but they aren't the full answer (we find that with life wasted--whose message was important enough to reprise towards the end of the record, and Inside Job--and the last songs on pearl jam albums are pretty significant in terms of what the album is about). Parachutes and Come Back pair nicely as a story of love against a vague backdrop of war, to the point that it is pretty reasonable to assume in the context of the record that the lost person is a war death. That's not the only interpretation, but S/T really uses the state of the US as a metaphor for failing personal relationships and (god help me) the fight to get it back again.


That's at least as unified as Riot Act, which has a mixture of songs about political decline (ghost, cropduster, 1/2 full, bushleaguer, green disease, help help), optimism (i am mine, love boat captain), defeatism (All or None, Thumbing My Way), can't keep and save you (which I guess you could plug into a few of these places), and you are and get right, which are just kinda there. In both cases the personal songs reflect the political climate of the time. The sense of listlessness in early 2000s America, and the fighting anger of the 2006-2009 end of the bush era.


None of this is a comment on how well executed these ideas are. I think both albums have serious issues on that score, but (for me, personally) the high spots on S/T are really high, and so I prefer that album.

Of all of Pearl Jam's albums, I think the songs on "Riot Act" give me the strongest, most consistent sense of singular exclusivity to their album--the sense that they really belong on the record that birthed them and nowhere else. I've wondered before if that isn't part of why the songs are played so infrequently in concert--unless they're the centerpiece of the show, like they were in 2003, they're hard to work in to a logical sequence of the rest of their material. While I wouldn't necessarily argue that it's any more thematically consistent than some of their other albums (I think "Yield" and "Backspacer" at least give it a run for its money), I do get a greater sense of time and place from "Riot Act" than I do from those records--that pervasive pall hanging over the country at the time, that weird mixture of sadness, fear, confusion, and half-hearted (or irrational) hope unique to times of large-scale tragedy. I like how the structure of the record mirrors the way those ideas play out in reality--one feeling barely has time to develop before it's swept up and devoured by a different, often contradictory one.

This thread made me want to revisit Backspacer last night. I realized it had been a while since I gave it a proper listen. I have to say I really respect them for trying something so different. I think they failed at it, but I still respect the shit out of them for trying. It's really not a bad album though. Got Some, Just Breathe, Force of Nature, and The End are all 4-5 star PJ songs.

Stip, I can buy all that. You win this one. THIS TIIIIIIME.

Kevin Davis, it's funny you mention the lack of Riot Act in recent gigs / tours. Some of my favourite concerts have been Binaural and Riot Act heavy (Live at The Garden, for example) but since most of those songs haven't been aired for a long time, maybe that's why I've been very uninterested in live PJ for so long?

i dont buy that idea of RA being the last record the band wanted to make. ST is a very strong and well thought effort even if you dont like it. The same with BS, there is an idea there that is as focused as RA. They are very different paths, but both of them are sincere.
As for RA, i used to loved it when it came out, even those "unfinished ideas", but it hasnt aged well for me. Its a record i listen because of some of its songs rather than think about it as an actual album like, let say, Binaural.

When you realize that Riot Act isn't a shell-shocked, defeatist album, you'll understand why You Are an Get Right make sense and add to the overall atmosphere/theme of the album.

Kevin Davis wrote:Of all of Pearl Jam's albums, I think the songs on "Riot Act" give me the strongest, most consistent sense of singular exclusivity to their album--the sense that they really belong on the record that birthed them and nowhere else.

This is probably more accurate than saying Riot Act is more cohesive than S/T or Backspacer.

VinylGuy wrote:i dont buy that idea of RA being the last record the band wanted to make. ST is a very strong and well thought effort even if you dont like it. The same with BS, there is an idea there that is as focused as RA. They are very different paths, but both of them are sincere.
As for RA, i used to loved it when it came out, even those "unfinished ideas", but it hasnt aged well for me. Its a record i listen because of some of its songs rather than think about it as an actual album like, let say, Binaural.

I don't think anyone said RA was the last album they wanted to make.

What do you consider "unfinished ideas" on RA?

durdencommatyler wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Of all of Pearl Jam's albums, I think the songs on "Riot Act" give me the strongest, most consistent sense of singular exclusivity to their album--the sense that they really belong on the record that birthed them and nowhere else.

This is probably more accurate than saying Riot Act is more cohesive than S/T or Backspacer.

Actually, I think that's why I used the word 'coherent' rather than 'cohesive'. You can feel songs 'hang together' without really feeling that an the album has a necessary concept, belonging only to that album. If you know what I mean. 'Coherent' means that there is a clear message / tone, or whatever, not just that the songs belong together sonically.

But now I'm being anal and talking about semantics.

durdencommatyler wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:i dont buy that idea of RA being the last record the band wanted to make. ST is a very strong and well thought effort even if you dont like it. The same with BS, there is an idea there that is as focused as RA. They are very different paths, but both of them are sincere.
As for RA, i used to loved it when it came out, even those "unfinished ideas", but it hasnt aged well for me. Its a record i listen because of some of its songs rather than think about it as an actual album like, let say, Binaural.

I don't think anyone said RA was the last album they wanted to make.

What do you consider "unfinished ideas" on RA?

the up tempo songs sound unfinished...Mike is going for it for sure, but the band and specially eddie, seem to need more work.
i would say songs like crodpduster, ghost, get right, help help, green disease ...all need something else to be great.

RA is, maybe, the PJ album that has less grown on me, i loved it when i first listen to it, but that´s about it.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:In all seriousness though, I do think Riot Act is coherent, thematically. S/T wasn't, and its anti-war stance was jarring set against stupidities like Big Wave and Severed Hand (even though I like the latter). Was Backspacer coherent? Sort of, and I've written about that before. But Riot Act is at least as unified as that.

Well I think you can say that about Riot Act (I think it is coherent, but I think all PJ albums are coherent). S/T is an album full of stories about struggling with loss, with a mixture of personal and political stories, and the transition from political to personal. Plus Big Wave. But Big Wave isn't any more of an outlier than, say, You Are or Get Right.

It's actually a little shocking to me how much Big Wave sticks out. The coherence of the rest seems to me far tighter, to the point of obviousness, than any other album. (Hence the idea of it as a proto-concept album and so on)