Mine wrote:Was concern expressed about trans people, using bathrooms different than what their birth certificates would suggest, by people in relevant numbers? I can't think of any instance when that happened to a degree that would demand laws to change.
I think it has everything to do with what electro mentioned above (gay marriage being legalized) and with Caitlyn Jenner's visibility--no, really. I think most of the people who write and support these laws and policies basically didn't believe transgendered people existed, that they were just some urban myth or something that existed in a 4-block area of NYC. Then, someone who's on an extremely popular reality show (and a successful athlete, a national hero basically) goes through a very public transition (check out the 2nd post in this thread where I talked about this a year ago), and suddenly people start talking bathroom bills and public safety and the menace of men in dresses in women's locker rooms. I definitely think the two things are connected.
Jenner before transitioning was more of a Kardashian than a national hero as far as i can tell which doesn't really help the trans community as don't a lot of things around and about her.
I don't think Jenner transitioning had much of an effect on all of this in the sense that it hardly brought anything out of obscurity. For example the Amazon show Transparent pre dated Jenner's Sawyer interview and it attracted a lot of attention.
At least in the US, I definitely felt trans visibility explode after Jenner's transition. Transparent is a relatively small and esoteric series available only via Amazon streaming. It has an audience, but it was never creating a national dialogue. Jenner is about as visible and mainstream a public figure as there can be, and this was a massive media whirlwind.
No one is saying it wasn't an issue before, but it became a huge national talking point after Jenner. As ST mentioned, there wasn't much in the way of rhetoric-driven legal brouhaha about it before.
Mine wrote:Was concern expressed about trans people, using bathrooms different than what their birth certificates would suggest, by people in relevant numbers? I can't think of any instance when that happened to a degree that would demand laws to change.
I think it has everything to do with what electro mentioned above (gay marriage being legalized) and with Caitlyn Jenner's visibility--no, really. I think most of the people who write and support these laws and policies basically didn't believe transgendered people existed, that they were just some urban myth or something that existed in a 4-block area of NYC. Then, someone who's on an extremely popular reality show (and a successful athlete, a national hero basically) goes through a very public transition (check out the 2nd post in this thread where I talked about this a year ago), and suddenly people start talking bathroom bills and public safety and the menace of men in dresses in women's locker rooms. I definitely think the two things are connected.
Jenner before transitioning was more of a Kardashian than a national hero as far as i can tell which doesn't really help the trans community as don't a lot of things around and about her.
I don't think Jenner transitioning had much of an effect on all of this in the sense that it hardly brought anything out of obscurity. For example the Amazon show Transparent pre dated Jenner's Sawyer interview and it attracted a lot of attention.
At least in the US, I definitely felt trans visibility explode after Jenner's transition. Transparent is a relatively small and esoteric series available only via Amazon streaming. It has an audience, but it was never creating a national dialogue. Jenner is about as visible and mainstream a public figure as there can be, and this was a massive media whirlwind.
No one is saying it wasn't an issue before, but it became a huge national talking point after Jenner. As ST mentioned, there wasn't much in the way of rhetoric-driven legal brouhaha about it before.
As obscure as the show is it did win Golden globe and Emmy awards which causes headlines on it's own.
I agree that Jenner transitioning caused trans visibility to increase considerably but it's not unprecedented. Think of Cher's daughter for example. I think there was a reality show there too.
I actually think Caitlyn Jenner transitioned that late in life was because she (and probably her pr people) thought the general climate would allow for the very public transition to be accepted as well as it was, which may not have been the case decades ago.
Mine wrote:
Jenner before transitioning was more of a Kardashian than a national hero as far as i can tell which doesn't really help the trans community as don't a lot of things around and about her.
Certainly lots of times had passed, but there were still plenty of people around who remembered the 1974 Olympics. Her win that year (competing as "Bruce" and as a man, of course; despite how impassioned I get about these topics, I still sometimes slip up and/or am not sure whether or not some people are fine with being referred to as "he/him" before their transition) had the same tenor as the 1980 US Men's hockey team--i.e., rah rah, we beat the Soviets, USA #1! It was a big deal.
Mine wrote:
Jenner before transitioning was more of a Kardashian than a national hero as far as i can tell which doesn't really help the trans community as don't a lot of things around and about her.
Certainly lots of times had passed, but there were still plenty of people around who remembered the 1974 Olympics. Her win that year (competing as "Bruce" and as a man, of course; despite how impassioned I get about these topics, I still sometimes slip up and/or am not sure whether or not some people are fine with being referred to as "he/him" before their transition) had the same tenor as the 1980 US Men's hockey team--i.e., rah rah, we beat the Soviets, USA #1! It was a big deal.
I'm not disputing that but being part of the Kardashian/Jenner clan increased her visibility in the last years enormously. She was far more in the spotlight before transitioning than she would have as just a retired Olympic legend. Even the transition and now her life as a woman is percieved as a Keeping Up With The Kardashians spin off with the expected media circus around it all.
Simple Torture wrote:
I think it has everything to do with what electro mentioned above (gay marriage being legalized) and with Caitlyn Jenner's visibility--no, really. I think most of the people who write and support these laws and policies basically didn't believe transgendered people existed, that they were just some urban myth or something that existed in a 4-block area of NYC.
Exactly. The unfortunate problem with these people is that they usually don't understand the basic fundamentals of the things that they are making laws against. It's the same deal as what I said in the pot thread...one of the first things that those idiots always say is that a surge in "overdoses" will be a threat to taxpayers and the medical system. And the fact that nobody has ever stopped them or corrected them is astonishing. 99% of these people don't even know the basic difference between a transgender and a cross-dresser.
BurtReynolds wrote:its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."
Exactly
My point is for every 1 transsexual uncomfortable with using a bathroom, there's like a thousand females understandably uncomfortable about someone with guy parts in the same bathroom as them
It's just for the greater good of the number of individuals involved..
If the majority of society was uncomfortable with blacks using the same drinking fountains as white people, you'd be down with that, yeah?
(Let's be clear: public drinking fountains are fucking disgusting; I've never not seen someone go full-Pawnee on one.)
It's completely different, color has the same body parts
If it's not an issue why didn't we just have universal bathrooms to begin with
BurtReynolds wrote:its not just assault.Its a privacy issue. If women are uncomfortable with biological males using their bathrooms, that should be respected, and its certainly not for any of us males to say "stop worrying about it! It's not like they are going to rape you."
Exactly
My point is for every 1 transsexual uncomfortable with using a bathroom, there's like a thousand females understandably uncomfortable about someone with guy parts in the same bathroom as them
It's just for the greater good of the number of individuals involved..
If the majority of society was uncomfortable with blacks using the same drinking fountains as white people, you'd be down with that, yeah?
(Let's be clear: public drinking fountains are fucking disgusting; I've never not seen someone go full-Pawnee on one.)
It's completely different, color has the same body parts
If it's not an issue why didn't we just have universal bathrooms to begin with
It's not a perfect analogy, but 50 years ago, there were lots of people that believed simply having a different skin color was dangerous--blacks were dirty, more prone to violence, and were a threat to the purity of the white race (hell, there are still lots of people who believe these things today). You said you're for the greatest good for the greatest number of individuals involved--so even if you didn't agree that skin color mattered or was something to be uncomfortable about, if a majority did, wouldn't you just have to grin and bear it? And I'm not sure when and where the practice of separate washrooms began--it'd be an interesting study.
Like I said tho.. I'm not so much worried about the actual transsexuals as I am the sick fucks that take advantage of the of the bathroom rule to go in
i got bugs wrote:Like I said tho.. I'm not so much worried about the actual transsexuals as I am the sick fucks that take advantage of the of the bathroom rule to go in
So, in the name of that statistically unsupportable fear, you're willing to systematically dehumanize an entire group of already heavily-persecuted people?
i got bugs wrote:Like I said tho.. I'm not so much worried about the actual transsexuals as I am the sick fucks that take advantage of the of the bathroom rule to go in
So, in the name of that statistically unsupportable fear, you're willing to systematically dehumanize an entire group of already heavily-persecuted people?
Haven't you been paying attention? Jeremy Bentham over here is sure that, like, only 1 in 1000 people are going to be hurt by this stuff, so we've got to take care of those 999 even though the 1 is also--statistically--prone to sexual violence, hate crimes, being fired or evicted, substance abuse, and being driven to suicide because they're consistently told they don't fit into the natural, normal order of things. Wake up, sheeple!
