Red Mosquito

malice wrote:this whole thing has a lot (as in A LOT) more to do with the attitudes about sexuality and how we teach children about sex than anyone seems to be talking about.

more on this later.

BurtReynolds wrote:

Sarah. wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:I get it, malice, you want a societal change. That's a lot to ask for short term. In the mean time, there are small ways to help prevent further danger (as I've discussed), and hopefully at the same time your ideas & Sarah's will be implemented as well.

I don't think the change is really a lot to ask for. Teach boys not to rape, and demand the same when they become men.

I assume the argument is that people and sometimes larger sections of society have fucked definitions of what constitutes rape, and surely you don't think "teaching boys not to rape" is some kind of panacea? I doubt most rapists aren't acting against their moral codes, assuming they have any. And from a societal standpoint is there a greater negative social stigma than being a rapist, besides being a child molester? I doubt many are unaware of that.

Is that really true? Here's a hypothetical question for you.
If I said that I was often coerced into having sex with my ex husband, often with threats of harm, often manipulated into agreeing to certain things I didn't want to do, and not only did I think that it was perfectly ok, but he did too, what kind of stigma would that bring?

If I called rape and took him to court (it's unlikely it'd ever get that far), I'd never be able to win a case like that. His friends would rally round and agree on how much of a fucked up bitch I was trying to ruin his life. Tell me I'm not right. Meanwhile, who's dealing with the fallout of being in that situation and trying to get over it?

Rape is not just being stalked by a crazy stranger because you drank a few beers and walked home. In fact it's rarely that simple to define.

Personally, I can't think of a single person I know that would think anything but extremely negatively toward someone who threatens harm if they don't get sex, regardless of whether it was against his wife or if she agreed that it was ok. Maybe they won't get attacked in the street, maybe they wouldn't be seen the quite the same as a crazy stranger rapist, but he'd certainly be very negatively perceived (to put it mildly). I can't conceive of a situation where someone I know would react at all positively or even neutrally about it. I know its not like that everywhere, and some oldtimers or religious nuts might say stay out of marital affairs, and celebrities often get away with it, but I would go so far as to say that, as a whole, U.S. society's stance on nonconsensual sex is emphatically against, and thus isn't the major cause its made out to be.

Maybe I'm just giving humanity too much credit, i dunno. I try my hardest not to give people any at all, so I'd be surprised.

I do think people will often go into denial rather than recognize that a close friend or relative would be the type of person that would do such a thing, or look for any evidence that there is consent, but that isn't the same as condoning rape.

It would be difficult to win a case like that, because, assuming the husband denied it, its extremely difficult to prove. We can't suspend presumption of innocence just because a crime is particularly heinous or difficult to prosecute. Short of a signed and notarized agreement for every sexual encounter or the accused being presumed guilty until proven innocent, I don't know how it will ever not be inherently difficult to convict.

Another hypothetical: Would you date someone you knew was aquitted of rape charges, regardless of the variety? Would you at least be especially wary of him? I wouldn't let my kid be alone with someone who was even accused of forcing non-consensual sex, even if they were cleared of all charges. Can someone actually convicted of rape (in any of its forms) ever get a job as anything other than a dishwasher, assuming they survive prison (a place where they historically aren't very popular)? Sure, Mike Tyson did, but most people aren't Mike Tyson. He is an exception, not the rule, and even he was at least somewhat punished. There is most definitely a stigma against rapists in society. We aren't that broken, yet.

surfndestroy wrote:

Green Habit wrote:Meanwhile, here's a great retort to the article I linked:

http://annfriedman.com/post/64213173982 ... ting-drunk

You really think that's a great retort. A retort that brands all men as potential rapists. Grow a set. Men are not the problen, rapists are the problem. Men can and should be part of the solution but not by branding them as potential rapists.

Sarah. wrote:Welp, I was fairly wrecked last night, so while I'm absolutely sure I had a really awesome point, I'm also sure I failed to articulate it coherently. For now, coffee. While I see if I can remember what it was...

theplatypus wrote:

Sarah. wrote:Welp, I was fairly wrecked last night, so while I'm absolutely sure I had a really awesome point, I'm also sure I failed to articulate it coherently. For now, coffee. While I see if I can remember what it was...

When faced with Harry Lime missing the point so prodigiously, .

theplatypus wrote:

Sarah. wrote:Welp, I was fairly wrecked last night, so while I'm absolutely sure I had a really awesome point, I'm also sure I failed to articulate it coherently. For now, coffee. While I see if I can remember what it was...

When faced with Harry Lime missing the point so prodigiously, I too would turn to the comfort of alcohol. It's a good thing we're not college girls.

Harry Lime wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Sarah. wrote:Welp, I was fairly wrecked last night, so while I'm absolutely sure I had a really awesome point, I'm also sure I failed to articulate it coherently. For now, coffee. While I see if I can remember what it was...

When faced with Harry Lime missing the point so prodigiously, .

Umm. No. Sorry, Platy.

malice wrote:

malice wrote:this whole thing has a lot (as in A LOT) more to do with the attitudes about sexuality and how we teach children about sex than anyone seems to be talking about.

more on this later.

this was a good article- and worth reading all the way through, but here's the part that applies here:

We’re Never Taught How to Get Sex
Even assuming that one happens to live in a state that teaches comprehensive sex-ed, we’re taught about the mechanics but nothing about how to actually go about finding it. We’re basically taught how it works and tossed out into the wild without even the vaguest idea of how to navigate the tricky world of sexual and romantic relationships without so much as a map or compass.
Now to be fair: I’m not suggesting that schools teach courses in seduction; if you thought that having the gym teacher explaining menstruation was awkward…
… but we do need to be willing to actually have an informed conversation about finding and starting relationships – including ones that are purely sexual.
The dominant cultural narrative is still that understanding social dynamics and being good at seduction should be instinctive and effortless. Some people are lucky enough to have an innate grasp of social interaction and attraction. Most don’t. Very few of us ever have any sort of conversation with anyone about how to date or find relationships and admitting that you want to get better is synonymous with saying “I’m a complete, helpless loser”.
When you have people who are taught that “only losers can’t get laid” combined with genuine ignorance as to how to actually get a woman or a man to like you, then you have a recipe for disaster. This is how you end up with a frat culture that believes the key to getting laid is to get women drunk – it’s an “easier” shortcut than actually learning how to generate sexual attraction. More and more teenagers are using sexual coercion – manipulating their partners into “giving it up” by getting angry or playing on their guilt; sometimes out of malice, but often because they don’t know any other way to get laid.
Of course, nature (and the free market) abhors a vacuum and people will try to fill it any way they can. And when the loudest voices out there offering to fill the void are the frat bros and the pick-up artists, then these are the ones that desperate and lonely people are going to turn to… and often learn all the wrong lessons in the process.

here's the whole article which encompasses much more that just this one subject, you should all read it.

What We Get Wrong About Sex
Harris O’Malley explains that for a country that places so much importance on sex, we seem to go out of our way to make ourselves miserable as possible over the subject.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont ... ex-hesaid/

theplatypus wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Sarah. wrote:Welp, I was fairly wrecked last night, so while I'm absolutely sure I had a really awesome point, I'm also sure I failed to articulate it coherently. For now, coffee. While I see if I can remember what it was...

When faced with Harry Lime missing the point so prodigiously, .

Umm. No. Sorry, Platy.

When you said you wanted to make love to a lady while playing "No Woman No Cry" because you wanted her to feel safe, is this what you meant?

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote:If I tell my kids not to talk to strangers does that make me an apologist for child abductors/molestors?

Sarah. wrote:

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote:If I tell my kids not to talk to strangers does that make me an apologist for child abductors/molestors?

Because telling a child not to talk to strangers is exactly the same as telling an adult not to misbehave.

Sarah. wrote:

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote:If I tell my kids not to talk to strangers does that make me an apologist for child abductors/molestors?

Because telling a child not to talk to strangers is exactly the same as telling an adult not to misbehave.