Red Mosquito

Sorry to hear trag.

My kid's high school has gone from 1-2 cases per week to 33 so far this week.

My kid’s high school was out today due to staff illnesses.

Hang in there, trag. Hope everyone’s okay.

B wrote:

4/5 wrote:Or maybe take the scare headlines with a grain of thought. Either way.

I'd support better reporting. If we've got millions of broken arms who happen to have COVID we need to change a great number of behaviors.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but according to the CDC Director, "In some hospitals that we've talked to, up to 40 percent of the patients who are coming in with COVID-19 are coming in not because they’re sick with COVID, but because they’re coming in with something else and have had to -- COVID or the omicron variant detected." So there's a pretty big disconnect happening in the numbers being reported and what's happening. This supports similar reporting about a week ago suggesting that at least half of the child hospitalization numbers were counting kids who didn't come to the hospital for covid.

Wonder how many have to stick around longer due to the covid, or how many come in for covid caused complications.

spike wrote:Wonder how many have to stick around longer due to the covid, or how many come in for covid caused complications.

Well, I think the second would be included in as a hospitalization for covid already, but you're right that more clarity on these numbers would be helpful.

4/5 wrote:

spike wrote:Wonder how many have to stick around longer due to the covid, or how many come in for covid caused complications.

Well, I think the second would be included in as a hospitalization for covid already, but you're right that more clarity on these numbers would be helpful.

Yes, that’s my point. All we really know is ERs and ICUs are being strained, and the pandemic is certainly contributing.

4/5 wrote:

B wrote:

4/5 wrote:Or maybe take the scare headlines with a grain of thought. Either way.

I'd support better reporting. If we've got millions of broken arms who happen to have COVID we need to change a great number of behaviors.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but according to the CDC Director, "In some hospitals that we've talked to, up to 40 percent of the patients who are coming in with COVID-19 are coming in not because they’re sick with COVID, but because they’re coming in with something else and have had to -- COVID or the omicron variant detected." So there's a pretty big disconnect happening in the numbers being reported and what's happening. This supports similar reporting about a week ago suggesting that at least half of the child hospitalization numbers were counting kids who didn't come to the hospital for covid.

That number is truly annoying, but yeah ... reporting should reflect "being treated for COVID by the hospital" not just "in the hospital and has COVID."

Hooray, agreement!

I wasn’t really disagreeing, just not sure it matters at this moment, nearly two years into a pandemic. Though I suppose this data should be sorted out once we’re at the endemic stage.

spike wrote:I wasn’t really disagreeing, just not sure it matters at this moment, nearly two years into a pandemic. Though I suppose this data should be sorted out once we’re at the endemic stage.

No, I know. I think it does matter, though, because a headline that says something about peak hospitalizations can be both true and misleading and this affects both policy and public perception of the risks which I'd argue matters a lot.

Yes yes, but to B’s point, it’s not like hospitalizations are peaking because people are breaking more arms. We all know the cause.

Or maybe more arms are breaking, due to pandemic labor shortages in brauny, blue collar job sectors. Or more admissions related to pandemic depression. It’s likely more complex than just covid or no covid at this point.

Sounds like most people have- Ah fuck it. Nevermind. Keep on with the global game of Fear Factor.

4/5 wrote:

spike wrote:Wonder how many have to stick around longer due to the covid, or how many come in for covid caused complications.

Well, I think the second would be included in as a hospitalization for covid already, but you're right that more clarity on these numbers would be helpful.

When you are admitted to a hospital on an inpatient basis, you may have several diagnoses/problems documented in the system related to that visit.

Some of these might be unrelated to the reason for admission, though (ie admitted for injury, and also has documented diabetes), some might be consequences of the reason for admission (admitted for blood pressure spike, is also having headaches and chest pains).

Every single one of these diagnoses/problems is documented *on your visit*, because each one has the potential to affect your care needs, options or goals. However, as far as medical records systems and hospital reporting is concerned, only one can be the reason for admission.

For a number of reasons, including legalities resulting from the CARES Act, reporting-based-funding, and insurance companies, you have one reason for admission and one reason only.

When a hospital says “40% of our current COVID cases are people who came in for something else,” they are saying that COVID is so prevalent that it is now routinely acquired in the hospital system. They are not saying that those people count towards their “hospitalized with COVID” numbers.

The only circumstances under which those patients could be counted in that category is if they became so ill from that hospital-acquired COVID that a new admission occurred….in other words, if I come in for a heart attack and, during my care, I become so sick with COVID that I warrant an ongoing inpatient treatment of care for that. This is a new encounter, with a new MRN, and it would be reported out.

If I came in with a heart attack, got COVID, and that illness slowed my recovery from the heart attack but was mostly treatable with a few medications, etc…if my COVID care needs alone would not have been sufficient to put me in the hospital were I not already there…it does not.

McParadigm wrote: When a hospital says “40% of our current COVID cases are people who came in for something else,” they are saying that COVID is so prevalent that it is now routinely acquired in the hospital system. They are not saying that those people count towards their “hospitalized with COVID” numbers.

The only circumstances under which those patients could be counted in that category is if they became so ill from that hospital-acquired COVID that a new admission occurred….in other words, if I come in for a heart attack and, during my care, I become so sick with COVID that I warrant an ongoing inpatient treatment of care for that. This is a new encounter, with a new MRN, and it would be reported out.

If I came in with a heart attack, got COVID, and that illness slowed my recovery from the heart attack but was mostly treatable with a few medications, etc…if my COVID care needs alone would not have been sufficient to put me in the hospital were I not already there…it does not.

You may be right about all of this, I don't know. I know that's not the impression I get from articles and quotes I've read recently. Each of these is within the last week. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though.

From NBC:

According to an NBC News analysis, at least nine states have reported record numbers of Covid-related pediatric hospitalizations: Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Maine, Missouri, Ohio and Pennsylvania, as well as Washington, D.C.

Some of those children were found to be Covid-positive through routine testing if they had to be hospitalized for other, unrelated issues. But many have been hospitalized specifically because of complications from Covid-19.

From CNN

The HHS data on Covid-19 hospitalizations includes both those patients who are hospitalized because of Covid-19 complications and those who may have been admitted for something else but test positive for Covid-19. This has been true throughout the pandemic, though the share of patients who fall into each category may have changed over time.

From WSJ:

The data don’t distinguish between people hospitalized for Covid-19, and those who are hospitalized for other reasons but test positive for the virus.

The high amount of Omicron circulating in communities is contributing to the number of people testing positive after routine screening, doctors say. It may also be a factor in the seriousness of their conditions.

Among a near-record 514 Covid-19 patients in the Jackson Health System’s Miami-area hospitals Monday, for example, an estimated 54% were admitted mainly for non-Covid-19 reasons, the system said.

Bammer wrote:Sounds like most people have- Ah fuck it. Nevermind. Keep on with the global game of Fear Factor.

Thank you for restraining yourself amidst this rather nuanced discussion.

4/5 wrote:

McParadigm wrote: When a hospital says “40% of our current COVID cases are people who came in for something else,” they are saying that COVID is so prevalent that it is now routinely acquired in the hospital system. They are not saying that those people count towards their “hospitalized with COVID” numbers.

The only circumstances under which those patients could be counted in that category is if they became so ill from that hospital-acquired COVID that a new admission occurred….in other words, if I come in for a heart attack and, during my care, I become so sick with COVID that I warrant an ongoing inpatient treatment of care for that. This is a new encounter, with a new MRN, and it would be reported out.

If I came in with a heart attack, got COVID, and that illness slowed my recovery from the heart attack but was mostly treatable with a few medications, etc…if my COVID care needs alone would not have been sufficient to put me in the hospital were I not already there…it does not.

You may be right about all of this, I don't know. I know that's not the impression I get from articles and quotes I've read recently. Each of these is within the last week. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, though.

Spoiler: show

From NBC:

According to an NBC News analysis, at least nine states have reported record numbers of Covid-related pediatric hospitalizations: Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Maine, Missouri, Ohio and Pennsylvania, as well as Washington, D.C.

Some of those children were found to be Covid-positive through routine testing if they had to be hospitalized for other, unrelated issues. But many have been hospitalized specifically because of complications from Covid-19.

From CNN

The HHS data on Covid-19 hospitalizations includes both those patients who are hospitalized because of Covid-19 complications and those who may have been admitted for something else but test positive for Covid-19. This has been true throughout the pandemic, though the share of patients who fall into each category may have changed over time.

From WSJ:

The data don’t distinguish between people hospitalized for Covid-19, and those who are hospitalized for other reasons but test positive for the virus.

The high amount of Omicron circulating in communities is contributing to the number of people testing positive after routine screening, doctors say. It may also be a factor in the seriousness of their conditions.

Among a near-record 514 Covid-19 patients in the Jackson Health System’s Miami-area hospitals Monday, for example, an estimated 54% were admitted mainly for non-Covid-19 reasons, the system said.

Exemptions exist because of course they do, and I'm sure it's true that their small subset of data cannot realistically be decoupled from the broad data once delivered. So qualifier statements like "some of these people are testing positive but are admitted for other reasons..." are journalistically appropriate. Some of the people in this data set do factually represent a recognizable type of outlier.

But I'm not arguing that the data is exact. I'm arguing that a set of standards is broadly adhered to, and is consistent enough (especially among larger institutions) that you cannot extrapolate a minority of outliers into "maybe they represent a vast inflation of hospitalization numbers."

For demonstration, consider Austin, Texas.

Austin currently reports that some 30-40% of patients admitted for other causes are testing positive for COVID. As of yesterday, Austin area has 3,379 current inpatient admissions, so 30% of that would be 1,125 patients testing positive for COVID. 40% would be over 1,300.

They are currently reporting 539 COVID hospitalizations. Because they are reporting people who require inpatient-level hospital care for COVID-based symptoms. Not every single patient who happens to test positive.

I can report that Austinites are hypochondriacs.