Red Mosquito

evenslow wrote:

stupidmop wrote:Though sometimes when I say 'man, backspacer sucks'. It's cause I really think it sucks that day. I don't know why I have to justify it everytime for it not to be seen as trolling.

well, you can do it all you want, but when it's the 74th time people have heard it, you can't expect them to high five you.

I usually expect to be ignored.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:who is actually DISMISSING this stuff as bias, rather than trying to understand a preference

Tuolumne wrote:I dunno, that Stereogum review is alot like RM, where there's some people that go, "I wish they were making the style from Binaural/Riot Act", which sounds alot like in the No Code era most of us heard from ex-fans "I wish they made music like Ten". It's just the nature of a band changing and not meeting you where you're at in a particular moment. Sure there's some songs that miss or could have been executed or included differently, but it's very reminiscent of that No Code era. I consider many members of this board to be "middle era" PJ fans, just like there are devotees (to this day) of "early" PJ. We're currently in "late era" PJ. It's just the changing nature of any band that goes this long. Over the several years I've been reading this and other boards, I've not been convinced it's anything otherwise.

This is not artfully said, perhaps, but the review does basically say there is a period of pearl jam that tickles his fancy not because the songs were good but because of the approach used in the songs.

A certain version of Pearl Jam ended with Riot Act. Since their third record, 1994′s Vitalogy, the band had continuously eschewed their mainstream success in favor of leaning more deliberately alternative, messing with their sound, and, speaking objectively about my favorites albums of theirs, simply making music that sounded uglier. I’m in a certain (but vocal) pseudo-minority of the fanbase that finds Yield, the middle of this process, to be a hidden masterpiece. I’m in a considerably smaller part of the fanbase that loves Riot Act. Sure, that album is all dulled burnt orange hues and wearied midnight wanderings, but even as many fans bemoaned the grayscale of Vedder’s delivery on it (pretty rightfully, though I’d argue it works for many of those songs) ironically it felt like the last moment Pearl Jam really gave us something. Each successive record has felt like some attempt at course correction, or a facsimile of what Pearl Jam imagined people expected them to be. Even when that approach works — as it does on most of Lightning Bolt — it still feels somehow removed from the band we’ve known and loved. They sounded best when they were striving and not always succeeding, their art-rock detours always more interesting than their middle-age rewrites of “Spin the Black Circle.”

And so Tuolumne's comments about where he's coming from don't sound that crazy as a response to this, do they?

I find it ironic and amusing when this reviewer writes "They sounded best when they were striving and not always succeeding." Is that not like... now? It partly sounds as if this reviewer would prefer they were just succeeding more at this point, and that the "striving and failing" was really cool, as long as you really liked the result. It's like when people say "PJ aren't challenging the listener anymore." Well, they are, it's just that this time, it's you being challenged, and it's not very nice is it?" No, the challenge isn't intellectual (I can hear the rebuttals already) or even artistic; it's the question of whether you'll follow the band into every direction and self-indulgence they want to take. And many of us answer "Fuck yeah!" until we hate what we're listening to.

Rebuttal! (even though I largely agree). I don't think this music is any less challenging (especially intellectually) than previous records. The music might be more or less complex but I could care less about that if I like how it sounds.

What makes pearl jam so interesting for me, and one of the reasons I still follow them, is that I think their music asks a lot of very important questions, and recently has gotten pretty good at answering them. And they are very open in the music about that process. It isn't veiled with irony or affectation, and since these are such important questions I think that's a strength in the music. And L-bolt is another chapter in that internal/external dialogue between themeselves and the world around them.

There are times you have to dig a little bit to find it, but I think it's always been there. Just in some cases it's more subtle. Ironically enough you'd think that would be appealing, but when it comes to ideas people often crave the immediacy they don't necessarily look for in the music. But Lightning Bolt is probably no less sophisticated in terms of what it asks, how it discusses it, and how it tries to find an answer, than a record like Binaural. They're basically trying to talk about the same things, and are just at different stages in the conversation.

stupidmop wrote:No full bodied vedder on no.11?

On the contrary, Vedder reveals his body to be fuller than ever.

Lament wrote:

stupidmop wrote:No full bodied vedder on no.11?

On the contrary, Vedder reveals his body to be fuller than ever.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:who is actually DISMISSING this stuff as bias, rather than trying to understand a preference

Tuolumne wrote:I dunno, that Stereogum review is alot like RM, where there's some people that go, "I wish they were making the style from Binaural/Riot Act", which sounds alot like in the No Code era most of us heard from ex-fans "I wish they made music like Ten". It's just the nature of a band changing and not meeting you where you're at in a particular moment. Sure there's some songs that miss or could have been executed or included differently, but it's very reminiscent of that No Code era. I consider many members of this board to be "middle era" PJ fans, just like there are devotees (to this day) of "early" PJ. We're currently in "late era" PJ. It's just the changing nature of any band that goes this long. Over the several years I've been reading this and other boards, I've not been convinced it's anything otherwise.

This is not artfully said, perhaps, but the review does basically say there is a period of pearl jam that tickles his fancy not because the songs were good but because of the approach used in the songs.

A certain version of Pearl Jam ended with Riot Act. Since their third record, 1994′s Vitalogy, the band had continuously eschewed their mainstream success in favor of leaning more deliberately alternative, messing with their sound, and, speaking objectively about my favorites albums of theirs, simply making music that sounded uglier. I’m in a certain (but vocal) pseudo-minority of the fanbase that finds Yield, the middle of this process, to be a hidden masterpiece. I’m in a considerably smaller part of the fanbase that loves Riot Act. Sure, that album is all dulled burnt orange hues and wearied midnight wanderings, but even as many fans bemoaned the grayscale of Vedder’s delivery on it (pretty rightfully, though I’d argue it works for many of those songs) ironically it felt like the last moment Pearl Jam really gave us something. Each successive record has felt like some attempt at course correction, or a facsimile of what Pearl Jam imagined people expected them to be. Even when that approach works — as it does on most of Lightning Bolt — it still feels somehow removed from the band we’ve known and loved. They sounded best when they were striving and not always succeeding, their art-rock detours always more interesting than their middle-age rewrites of “Spin the Black Circle.”

And so Tuolumne's comments about where he's coming from don't sound that crazy as a response to this, do they?

I find it ironic and amusing when this reviewer writes "They sounded best when they were striving and not always succeeding." Is that not like... now? It partly sounds as if this reviewer would prefer they were just succeeding more at this point, and that the "striving and failing" was really cool, as long as you really liked the result. It's like when people say "PJ aren't challenging the listener anymore." Well, they are, it's just that this time, it's you being challenged, and it's not very nice is it?" No, the challenge isn't intellectual (I can hear the rebuttals already) or even artistic; it's the question of whether you'll follow the band into every direction and self-indulgence they want to take. And many of us answer "Fuck yeah!" until we hate what we're listening to.

Rebuttal! (even though I largely agree). I don't think this music is any less challenging (especially intellectually) than previous records. The music might be more or less complex but I could care less about that if I like how it sounds.

But that's what I meant, stip (not that I wish to ignore the rest of your post)! Intellectually challenging in a musical sense, which is to do with complexity and the element of surprise. PJ are mostly taking predictable directions, twists and turns in their newer songs. And when the turns are "unpredictable", they're still of a pop style which seems shoehorned into the song. Well, that's not always my complaint, but I get it.

Fair enough. And I meant musically in a much broader sense than you did. I should have said songs.

Also, I find the equation of "irony" with "affectation" kind of disingenuous. Irony is a real, authentic human trait and I find it very unaffected when done well. But I agree with you about Lightning Bolt; apart from the chorus being deceptively silly to a casual listen, the lyrics are intelligent and the extended metaphor is well-executed.

Edit: not only is irony authentic, I also find it inescapable as a human emotion sometimes. But that might just be me.

harmless wrote:Also, I find the equation of "irony" with "affectation" kind of disingenuous. Irony is a real, authentic human trait and I find it very unaffected when done well. But I agree with you about Lightning Bolt; apart from the chorus being deceptively silly to a casual listen, the lyrics are intelligent and the extended metaphor is well-executed.

Edit: not only is irony authentic, I also find it inescapable as a human emotion sometimes. But that might just be me.

I did not intend to say that irony is affectation

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:Also, I find the equation of "irony" with "affectation" kind of disingenuous. Irony is a real, authentic human trait and I find it very unaffected when done well. But I agree with you about Lightning Bolt; apart from the chorus being deceptively silly to a casual listen, the lyrics are intelligent and the extended metaphor is well-executed.

Edit: not only is irony authentic, I also find it inescapable as a human emotion sometimes. But that might just be me.

I did not intend to say that irony is affectation

No, fair enough. But you paired "irony and affectation", making me think they were related in your use.

Oh yeah, I could have been clearer

It's a relaxing album for the most part. That's probably what i like about it. I think these guys accepted the fact that they're getting old, so stop forcing too many "Supersonics" & "Got Somes"

Harry Lime wrote:It's a relaxing album for the most part. That's probably what i like about it. I think these guys accepted the fact that they're getting old, so stop forcing too many "Supersonics" & "Got Somes"

WHAT THE SHIT HAPPENED IN HERE

See what happens when you leave?

McParadigm wrote:WHAT THE SHIT HAPPENED IN HERE

WE ALL GOT MAD AND THEN WE CAME AND NOW WE'RE ALL JUST IN THE MELLOW AFTERGLOW.

Lament wrote:

McParadigm wrote:WHAT THE SHIT HAPPENED IN HERE

WE ALL GOT MAD AND THEN WE CAME AND NOW WE'RE ALL JUST IN THE MELLOW AFTERGLOW.

In this case I rose before the yellow moon.

I will turn this thread around

So help me I will

Later we are gonna argue about who has to post in the wet spot

It's a fragile thing, these posts we post.

harmless wrote:

Lament wrote:

McParadigm wrote:WHAT THE SHIT HAPPENED IN HERE

WE ALL GOT MAD AND THEN WE CAME AND NOW WE'RE ALL JUST IN THE MELLOW AFTERGLOW.

In this case I rose before the yellow moon.

YOU HEAR THAT? HARMLESS IS RELOADED AND READY TO GO AGAIN.