Orpheus wrote:I'll have to watch it again and see if I can get it straight.
But apart from that, I can't really say I agree with any of that Durds. But it seems we are thinking about it in two different ways. I am fine with something like a one-off fantasy sequence. I didn't really have any problem with narrative consistency or anything else in this film. It flowed really well and everything worked together, for me at least.
Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.
Last edited by tragabigzanda on Sun January 11, 2026 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
IIRC, Rick is saying he can't get Cliff onto Green Hornet because Randy/his wife don't like him, and the Western show because there will be nothing for him to do. But I could be wrong, I've only seen it once and I don't have the script. But I remember it making perfect sense at the time to me.
Maybe I'm misremembering. I swore that Cliff asked Rick to get him on the new show. But Rick says (paraphrasing) "No point. Randy's doing it and you know he hates you." Cliff then goes back to fix Rick's TV. While on the roof, we see a ton of "flashbacks" or "memories" or "fantasies." An argument could be made that any of them is any of those things I suppose.
But the issue is that nothing else in the movie is treated that way. So if it's a fantasy, it's the only time in the text that that happens. Therefore, it stands to reason that it isn't. But if it is, it's utterly stupid on all the levels I've already discussed AND on the level of consistency and narrative vision. If you're right it only strengthens my point that QT has nothing to say and is only interested in WOULDN'TBECOOLIF rather telling a competent, coherent story.
Just as a point of clarification, the film opened with the flashback on the set of the Outlaw Justice, and then we got another flashback scene in which we see Rick Dalton use the flamethrower on the WWII movie set.
But none of those were fantasies, is my point. If the Bruce Lee scene is in anyway a fantasy (either totally or partially because of Cliff's perspective) that's not repeated (to my knowledge/memory) ever again in the film.
Which is fine, I guess. But feels hollow to me. A tricky narrative device with no payoff is masturbation. It detracts from the film rather than adding to it. And that's always been my biggest issue with QT.
tragabigzanda wrote:Gosh I loved this movie. The through-narrative I see clearly is one of the Hollywood of old slowly fading as younger stars, hippies, and hangers-on make their way to town.
Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.
Last edited by tragabigzanda on Sun January 11, 2026 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.
Last edited by tragabigzanda on Sun January 11, 2026 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
IIRC, Rick is saying he can't get Cliff onto Green Hornet because Randy/his wife don't like him, and the Western show because there will be nothing for him to do. But I could be wrong, I've only seen it once and I don't have the script. But I remember it making perfect sense at the time to me.
Maybe I'm misremembering. I swore that Cliff asked Rick to get him on the new show. But Rick says (paraphrasing) "No point. Randy's doing it and you know he hates you." Cliff then goes back to fix Rick's TV. While on the roof, we see a ton of "flashbacks" or "memories" or "fantasies." An argument could be made that any of them is any of those things I suppose.
But the issue is that nothing else in the movie is treated that way. So if it's a fantasy, it's the only time in the text that that happens. Therefore, it stands to reason that it isn't. But if it is, it's utterly stupid on all the levels I've already discussed AND on the level of consistency and narrative vision. If you're right it only strengthens my point that QT has nothing to say and is only interested in WOULDN'TBECOOLIF rather telling a competent, coherent story.
Just as a point of clarification, the film opened with the flashback on the set of the Outlaw Justice, and then we got another flashback scene in which we see Rick Dalton use the flamethrower on the WWII movie set.
But none of those were fantasies, is my point. If the Bruce Lee scene is in anyway a fantasy (either totally or partially because of Cliff's perspective) that's not repeated (to my knowledge/memory) ever again in the film.
Which is fine, I guess. But feels hollow to me. A tricky narrative device with no payoff is masturbation. It detracts from the film rather than adding to it. And that's always been my biggest issue with QT.
Well...QT movies are nothing if not masturbatory.
Totally true. I should have expected it. I guess I keep thinking he'll grow up? I don't know. Look, the guy just isn't my taste. I'm really glad you guys got something out of the movie. I love when art resonates with people. I wish I felt the same, truly.
tragabigzanda wrote:Gosh I loved this movie. The through-narrative I see clearly is one of the Hollywood of old slowly fading as younger stars, hippies, and hangers-on make their way to town.
That would have been a better movie, for sure.
Is this how you feel when I say the new SK songs suck?
ha!
I haven't even listened to the record yet. I'll let you know once I have.
tree_ wrote:I like QT precisely for his masturbation. It's fun and it feels good.
That's great. Nothing about his work is fun and very little of it feels good to me, though. Which is why we're on different sides of this debate. But I'm glad you enjoyed the film.
Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.
Last edited by tragabigzanda on Sun January 11, 2026 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
tragabigzanda wrote:Joe I think you should watch Jackie Brown. He's never made another movie like it. It's completely devoid of any masturbatory scenes, any fantasies, and there's hardly any blood or action. Pam Grier and Robert Forster's story is really touching. The stuff with DeNiro and Bridget Fonda is sort of cold and detached, but not in a way that resembles his other works; they're just sort of shiftless characters without any morals or motivation. But the blossoming love story between his older leads is really nice, and something he has never even attempted to do again in its earnestness.
LV also recommended this movie to me a while back and said he thought I'd really love it. I need to check it out. But I also need to wait until I've let this one (Hollywood) settle a bit. I don't want to go in dreading it, you know?
But I do have a feeling, based on what you said here, and what LV has said in the past, that I'll probably dig it. So when I see it, I'll be actively engaged and hoping to love it.
And thanks guys for having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it. My wife and I talked after the movie (she HATED it) but it's nice to get some different perspectives. I love hearing what other people thought and picked up on. Like I said, there's a lot to like in the movie and I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks.
I appreciate perspectives different from mine. Thanks for discussing! I understand why you feel the way you do. I don't think I'll ever understand why the Marvel movies are as popular as they are, though...
