Red Mosquito

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:I find it interesting that multiple people have expressed fascination with how outspoken the "Beatles fans" are in their defense of them, as though they are some kind of brainwashed horde of militants incapable of accepting anything shy of unequivocal praise for their beloved. But I wonder how many of these people are "Beatles fans" in the same way that, say, Stip is a Pearl Jam fan. Personally, I can think of probably 10 artists who mean more to me than the Beatles, but from a musical standpoint I would probably defend the Beatles in a way that I wouldn't even attempt with the others. Generally speaking I don't think these defenses are coming from some army of Pit-like superfans who feel like the Beatles are "their band"; more than most bands, I think the Beatles solicit this kind of reaction from general music fans who just think they're that good, and I think that says something.

The fact that the music is that good is quite possibly why they have the defenders that they do. The fact that you cannot possibly dislike the beatles without something being wrong with you is something altogether different. That's the beatles as ideology.

Again, I've never encountered this in any other than a non-serious way. And I think people being asked to "defend" their dislike or indifference of the Beatles isn't about "how dare you" or "you're clearly some sort of gigantic idiot" it's just about trying to connect. Usually, I only ask the people I respect to "defend" their musical opinions -- ANY musical opinions -- when they differ from my own. Because I respect them and I want to open a dialogue and try to understand their point of view. Not to prove them wrong or attack them or make them feel trapped and/or stupid.

It's about understanding and communication. Nothing more. My asking jambi or Lament or you to discuss this in greater detail, or tell me what bands you prefer or whatever isn't an attack. It's actually a sign of respect from me. Because it means I trust you enough that I want to have the conversation. You'll notice I don't always ask posters to "defend" themselves.

yeah I know it was basically tongue in cheek in your case, but for many people I think it wouldn't be...


here is the exchange:

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:it sounds familiar without conjuring up any specific memories, almost like a genre baseline kind of song.

In either case I think infallible is much better.

Okay, listen. I goddamn LOVE Infallible. I have a feeling I'll be one of this boards biggest champions of the song. But what you're saying here... just... just shut up. No, no Stip!

SHUT. UP.

I keep listening to this song to see what i'm missing. I think this is getting bonus points for being old and first. I mean, it's a nice enough song, but I can't imagine myself ever really caring about this outside of a time capsule kinda way

how this ended up number 57 on a top songs of all time list is beyond me.

Not that it matters or should sway your own opinion in any way, it's just an interesting fact that maybe you'd like to know, but Paul McCartney has called it the best song ever written.

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:yeah but I don't like the beatles.

Oh just stop.

harmless wrote:Tbf, I don't like the Beatles either.

Thejambi wrote:Yeah i hate them.

theplatypus wrote:PEARL JAM CHAT

durdencommatyler wrote:I quit.

durdencommatyler wrote:I have more in common with --- today than ever before.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I quit.

Comeback Joey

I love you, doc. But I can't do this forum anymore. If you need me I'll be in OB or A&E or GD. OR maybe in Food & Debate if I've been drinking.

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:I find it interesting that multiple people have expressed fascination with how outspoken the "Beatles fans" are in their defense of them, as though they are some kind of brainwashed horde of militants incapable of accepting anything shy of unequivocal praise for their beloved. But I wonder how many of these people are "Beatles fans" in the same way that, say, Stip is a Pearl Jam fan. Personally, I can think of probably 10 artists who mean more to me than the Beatles, but from a musical standpoint I would probably defend the Beatles in a way that I wouldn't even attempt with the others. Generally speaking I don't think these defenses are coming from some army of Pit-like superfans who feel like the Beatles are "their band"; more than most bands, I think the Beatles solicit this kind of reaction from general music fans who just think they're that good, and I think that says something.

The fact that the music is that good is quite possibly why they have the defenders that they do. The fact that you cannot possibly dislike the beatles without something being wrong with you is something altogether different. That's the beatles as ideology.

Again, I've never encountered this in any other than a non-serious way. And I think people being asked to "defend" their dislike or indifference of the Beatles isn't about "how dare you" or "you're clearly some sort of gigantic idiot" it's just about trying to connect. Usually, I only ask the people I respect to "defend" their musical opinions -- ANY musical opinions -- when they differ from my own. Because I respect them and I want to open a dialogue and try to understand their point of view. Not to prove them wrong or attack them or make them feel trapped and/or stupid.

It's about understanding and communication. Nothing more. My asking jambi or Lament or you to discuss this in greater detail, or tell me what bands you prefer or whatever isn't an attack. It's actually a sign of respect from me. Because it means I trust you enough that I want to have the conversation. You'll notice I don't always ask posters to "defend" themselves.

my comments were mostly about that exchange in chat, not here, which, while tongue in cheek (everything there was pretty playful) was still pretty indicative of the typical reaction you'd get from say Soma, Zeb, Fishbob, Doug RR, or some of the other people in this thread. Or Platy when he doesn't feel like talking. That the beatles are untouchable and that anyone who criticizes them needs to justify their opinion not because they are interested in dialogue, but because the opinion is in some way deviant and has no intrinsic legitimacy.

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:if this makes you feel better, KD, this thread was created in response to a sequence in PJ chat, when DcT justified something being good based on Paul McCartney's opinion (PM likes it, so it must be good).

Nope. I haven't finished reading this entire reply because I take tremendous issue with this. I absolutely did NOT say that.

durdencommatyler wrote:Not that it matters or should sway your own opinion in any way, it's just an interesting fact that maybe you'd like to know, but Paul McCartney has called it the best song ever written.

you're right. that was not a fair representation of what you said.

Some comments:

Its the bravery/culturally retarded thread.

In this thread: Who to be wary of in Other Bands.

A Day in The Life of Stupid...that's what this thread is

As soon as you declare that you don't like The Beatles then the rest of your opinions about music immediately become questionable


With the exception of the PJChat exchange (which was hard to except at tongue in cheek because that is usually the type of response I've gotten about not liking the Beatles) I thought you actually tried to open a conversation here. The problem is it didn't start as conversation from either side. I'll admit surrounding some of the comments above it did feel like a set up to be called an idiot more when you asked what other music I liked.

I'll probably just stick with the bad hair reason.

Can the non-Beatles fans listen to the following songs and get back to me, mmm-kay?

Baby You're a Rich Man
Hey Bulldog
Flying
Blue Jay Way
I'm Only Sleeping
Tomorrow Never Knows
I'm Looking Through You
Run For Your Life
Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite!
Fixing A Hole
You Never Give Me Your Money
The End
I Want You (She's So Heavy)
I've Got A Feeling
Don't Let Me Down
We Can Work It Out
Paperback Writer
Don't Bother Me
Across The Universe
Tell Me What You See
Things We Said Today
I'll Follow The Sun
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Yer Blues
Helter Skelter
Two Of Us
For You Blue

----

I know that's a lot of songs, and is a lot to ask, but those are a mixture of known songs and some more obscure ones. To me, those songs are some of the Beatles best work, and that's a very incomplete list. To me, all of the above are pretty brilliant, and I'm leaving off tons of stuff. That is how good this band is.

this thread makes me laugh.

darth_vedder wrote:Can the non-Beatles fans listen to the following songs and get back to me, mmm-kay?

Baby You're a Rich Man
Hey Bulldog
Flying
Blue Jay Way
I'm Only Sleeping
Tomorrow Never Knows
I'm Looking Through You
Run For Your Life
Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite!
Fixing A Hole
You Never Give Me Your Money
The End
I Want You (She's So Heavy)
I've Got A Feeling
Don't Let Me Down
We Can Work It Out
Paperback Writer
Don't Bother Me
Across The Universe
Tell Me What You See
Things We Said Today
I'll Follow The Sun
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Yer Blues
Helter Skelter
Two Of Us
For You Blue

----

I know that's a lot of songs, and is a lot to ask, but those are a mixture of known songs and some more obscure ones. To me, those songs are some of the Beatles best work, and that's a very incomplete list. To me, all of the above are pretty brilliant, and I'm leaving off tons of stuff. That is how good this band is.

how about you pick the 3 songs on that list you think I'd like the most.

stip wrote:Note too though, the implicit assumption in your argument that to even hold the opinion that you personally don't like the beatles music requires you to justify or defend it.

stip wrote:Note again, however, the initial assumption you made here---'that one can only dislike the beatles as an act of reflexive contrariness'

Come on, that's not what I said or implied--it's certainly not a direct quote. What I said was that this thread invited people to offer contrarian opinions without having to put any thought into it, not that one can only ever dislike the Beatles as an act of reflexive contrarianism. My point was that a list of people simply chiming in and agreeing with the title of a thread (or disagreeing with it), regardless of what band is being discussed, is not interesting, and the sort of thing it seems like you consistently dislike seeing on this board. Maybe I've misinterpreted your position all along, but it seems like you historically have commented that you wish for this board to be the "intelligent" board, compared to places like the Pit, and this seems like the type of thread that would go directly against that.

stip wrote:also, it was basically Soma that shot down Jorge's question--one of the 'you're a moron if you dislike the beatles' posters.

Right. And my post is pretty clear that the insubstantial opinion flinging is not limited to just the non-Beatle fans.

darth_vedder wrote:Can the non-Beatles fans listen to the following songs and get back to me, mmm-kay?

Baby You're a Rich Man
Hey Bulldog
Flying
Blue Jay Way
I'm Only Sleeping
Tomorrow Never Knows
I'm Looking Through You
Run For Your Life
Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite!
Fixing A Hole
You Never Give Me Your Money
The End
I Want You (She's So Heavy)
I've Got A Feeling
Don't Let Me Down
We Can Work It Out
Paperback Writer
Don't Bother Me
Across The Universe
Tell Me What You See
Things We Said Today
I'll Follow The Sun
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Yer Blues
Helter Skelter
Two Of Us
For You Blue

----

I know that's a lot of songs, and is a lot to ask, but those are a mixture of known songs and some more obscure ones. To me, those songs are some of the Beatles best work, and that's a very incomplete list. To me, all of the above are pretty brilliant, and I'm leaving off tons of stuff. That is how good this band is.

You forgot A Day in the Life. The quintessential Lennon/McCartney song.

Kevin Davis wrote:

stip wrote:Note too though, the implicit assumption in your argument that to even hold the opinion that you personally don't like the beatles music requires you to justify or defend it.

stip wrote:Note again, however, the initial assumption you made here---'that one can only dislike the beatles as an act of reflexive contrariness'

Come on, that's not what I said or implied--it's certainly not a direct quote. What I said was that this thread invited people to offer contrarian opinions without having to put any thought into it, not that one can only ever dislike the Beatles as an act of reflexive contrarianism. My point was that a list of people simply chiming in and agreeing with the title of a thread (or disagreeing with it), regardless of what band is being discussed, is not interesting, and the sort of thing it seems like you consistently dislike seeing on this board. Maybe I've misinterpreted your position all along, but it seems like you historically have commented that you wish for this board to be the "intelligent" board, compared to places like the Pit, and this seems like the type of thread that would go directly against that.

Oh come on. Honestly I didn't necessarily intend for this thread to be troll bait (I figured it would eventually turn into a serious discussion once people showed up, and had some initial fun with it), but it's not like starting a thread with something other than a 500 word post on the subject somehow invalidates my general aspirations for the board.


And whether or not what I inferred from your post was something you intentionally implied, I definitely read that out of it. I wonder if I was the only one.

not sure how one with any kind of pop sympathies couldn't adore paperback writer.

also, this is the first beatles song i ever learned to play on guitar.

Very soon this thread will just be Kevin Davis and Stip saying "come on" to each other.

stip wrote:my comments were mostly about that exchange in chat, not here, which, while tongue in cheek (everything there was pretty playful)

Just as long as we all understand that I was joking around. I was doing my best "too cool for school poster" impression. I just don't want anyone to think I was anywhere close to serious about all of that. It was satire and shtick. And I hope that was clear at the time, and certainly that it's clear now.

stip wrote:still pretty indicative of the typical reaction you'd get from say Soma, Zeb, Fishbob, Doug RR, or some of the other people in this thread. Or Platy when he doesn't feel like talking. That the beatles are untouchable and that anyone who criticizes them needs to justify their opinion not because they are interested in dialogue, but because the opinion is in some way deviant and has no intrinsic legitimacy.

I can't speak for others (like zeb or Soma. or doug) but I know in my own personal experience, that reaction comes from too many situations where the person doesn't know what they're talking about. When you encounter a handful of people who hate the Beatles, then you ask they way and they say, "they suck" or worse admit they've only heard Yellow Submarine, it can wear you down. No one here is doing that. I'm not referencing a single conversation here. Just in my life. They same way so many of you feel "attacked" or dismissed by Beatles lovers, my own experience has lead me to a place where, usually the people I'm talking to who don't like the Beatles actually don't know what they're talking about.

My obnoxious and cheeky reply to Lament earlier was meant to be over the top and condescending. But there is a small element of truth to it, in general, I think. And that's further backed up Lament's admission (about the idea of hating the Beatles because they're the Beatles) and his discussion with KD were discussing a couple pages back.

How can anyone only know Yellow Submarine? This is not 'oh, you only know pearl jam because of ten.' It's the fucking Beatles? How can there be a single music listener on this planet who is not very familiar with at least 20 of their songs.

theplatypus wrote:Very soon this thread will just be Kevin Davis and Stip saying "come on" to each other.

it's a slow seduction

stip wrote:How can anyone only know Yellow Submarine? This is not 'oh, you only know pearl jam because of ten.' It's the fucking Beatles? How can there be a single music listener on this planet who is not very familiar with at least 20 of their songs.

I think it's probably much easier these days to not be exposed to music you don't necessarily have any interest in than it was 20 years ago...

malice wrote:

stip wrote:How can anyone only know Yellow Submarine? This is not 'oh, you only know pearl jam because of ten.' It's the fucking Beatles? How can there be a single music listener on this planet who is not very familiar with at least 20 of their songs.

I think it's probably much easier these days to not be exposed to music you don't necessarily have any interest in than it was 20 years ago...

true.

Lament wrote:I gave a perfectly valid explanation for why the Beatles rarely cross my mind and aren't a band I care much about one way or the other, and not a single defender has even bothered to approach my explanation.

And for two reasons. 1: You defended yourself well. And 2: there's not much of a counter argument. No one can fight how you feel. You're explanation is valid and well put. But what further discussion does it demand?

It's not like you said you don't like the Beatles because they suck at harmonies. That's something we both could debate and discuss back and forth with specific examples. "They don't move me," while totally valid isn't really something that can be debated or discussed.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Lament wrote:I gave a perfectly valid explanation for why the Beatles rarely cross my mind and aren't a band I care much about one way or the other, and not a single defender has even bothered to approach my explanation.

And for two reasons. 1: You defended yourself well. And 2: there's not much of a counter argument. No one can fight how you feel. You're explanation is valid and well put. But what further discussion does it demand?

It's not like you said you don't like the Beatles because they suck at harmonies. That's something we both could debate and discuss back and forth with specific examples. "They don't move me," while totally valid isn't really something that can be debated or discussed.

As long as it can still be dismissed as stupid, RM will never run out of discussion.