Red Mosquito

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I think a lot of PJ's existing fanbase, perhaps even a majority, includes people outside of RM who have tastes similar to mine and Stip's. Which is to say, we don't really like the middle period albums. We've learned to live with them because we had to. But we'd rather they make records in the vein of LB or Backspacer than have to sit through another Binaural or Riot Act.

My impression from lurking The Pit, which is my only other insight into the Pearl Jam fanbase at large, is that the last two records aren't any more well-loved there than here.

The general consensus, as much as I can tell, is that the band's 90s records (all of them) are held in higher esteem than anything that came after.

If you just talk about the 90s records, I could agree with that if No Code is excluded. Yield is universally loved (for whatever reason) but I can't say the same for No Code. I don't think the run of S/T-LB is held in lower esteem than No Code, Binaural and Riot Act. It's been a while since I've logged on to the Pit though. I spend more time on the FB page of The Official Ten Club Members, which really isn't official. Lots of people post there everyday and their enthusiasm for the new records is pretty evident.

You guys sound like the middle period was a time of completely weird/difficult music, when it was mostly pop/rock songs with nothing overtly experimental about them. OMG some of it was a little more subdued than Ten! To think these albums required some high level of investment to be enjoyed is completely absurd.

I've listened to this repeatedly and poured over the deep and carefully crafted arguments in this thread. My conclusion, after careful deliberation and soul-searching, almost to the point of self-immolation, is:

Ed sings like a bitch now because he became a pussy-ass bitch-ass bitch

Heathen wrote:You guys sound like the middle period was a time of completely weird/difficult music, when it was mostly pop/rock songs with nothing overtly experimental about them. OMG some of it was a little more subdued than Ten! To think these albums required some high level of investment to be enjoyed is completely absurd.

Indeed; there's nothing remotely inaccessible on No Code compared to what other even mainstream rock bands were doing at the time (eg. Stone Temple Pilots, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.) or the band's influences such as Led Zeppelin or whomever else.

I think the reduced touring and lack of film clips and interviews had a more significant impact on why people began thinking of the band as shedding their fanbase than their music.

There was never any drastic change to their sound (drummer changes aside); it's all still pretty straight-forward rock music.

For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Heathen wrote:You guys sound like the middle period was a time of completely weird/difficult music, when it was mostly pop/rock songs with nothing overtly experimental about them. OMG some of it was a little more subdued than Ten! To think these albums required some high level of investment to be enjoyed is completely absurd.

Indeed; there's nothing remotely inaccessible on No Code compared to what other even mainstream rock bands were doing at the time (eg. Stone Temple Pilots, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.) or the band's influences such as Led Zeppelin or whomever else.

I think the reduced touring and lack of film clips and interviews had a more significant impact on why people began thinking of the band as shedding their fanbase than their music.

There was never any drastic change to their sound (drummer changes aside); it's all still pretty straight-forward rock music.

Not drastic in that they're still playing the same instruments and the same lead singer is singing, but enough of a change in the songwriting to take a lot of the emotional highs out from listening to a PJ album, for a fan of the earlier stuff. The people who jumped ship after No Code didn't all get bored with PJ because they were doing the same thing. They left because they didn't like what they were doing different. Reduced publicity, touring, etc. all has an impact. However, the impact of their musical output cannot be ignored.

I think I've said what I had to. You can disagree which I'm sure you will. This is a never ending discussion which requires time that I really should be spending at work. So until next time, goodbye!

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

I think that's more to do with familiarity rather than quality. We all have different yard sticks when it comes to the catalogue, so it's easy to be misty eyed about the earlier work as it relates to our own youth and experiences with the music/band at the time.

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

For what it's worth, I partially agree (Vs is my favourite Pearl Jam record, remember). I don't think Binaural is a particularly satisfying listen compared to their earlier work and Riot Act is weaker again.

It's just that I think Backspacer and Lightning Bolt are substantially worse.

dimejinky99 wrote:

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

I think that's more to do with familiarity rather than quality. We all have different yard sticks when it comes to the catalogue, so it's easy to be misty eyed about the earlier work as it relates to our own youth and experiences with the music/band at the time.

I said goodbye but just a short reply. I'm 30. I discovered PJ in 2004. I listened to all the albums virtually together in the span of a few days. There is just an undeniable immediacy about the first three records which is hard to put into words. In my case, it has nothing to do with my youth experiences. It's also not like I didn't give these albums time. Sometimes, it just doesn't click. You might find you're in the mood for a particular song on a certain day and there are those songs on these albums for me. But as complete albums, they just don't do it for me. I'm glad they do for others.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

For what it's worth, I partially agree (Vs is my favourite Pearl Jam record, remember). I don't think Binaural is a particularly satisfying listen compared to their earlier work and Riot Act is weaker again.

It's just that I think Backspacer and Lightning Bolt are substantially worse.

Fair enough. Different strokes.

theplatypus wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Where do you live?

You really want to know? I don't think I'll be viewed the same way if I told you.

India?

Pakistan. Only because you insisted.

Binaural through Avocado are uninspired to my ears but the last two were exciting for me in broad terms. Even if it was only that they showed they can still take some new turns and try different things, and at least trying..The failures on these and previous records for me was when they 'tried' to sound like their former selves.
it didn't really work at all.

Release_Me wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

I think that's more to do with familiarity rather than quality. We all have different yard sticks when it comes to the catalogue, so it's easy to be misty eyed about the earlier work as it relates to our own youth and experiences with the music/band at the time.

I said goodbye but just a short reply. I'm 30. I discovered PJ in 2004. I listened to all the albums virtually together in the span of a few days. There is just an undeniable immediacy about the first three records which is hard to put into words. In my case, it has nothing to do with my youth experiences. It's also not like I didn't give these albums time. Sometimes, it just doesn't click. You might find you're in the mood for a particular song on a certain day and there are those songs on these albums for me. But as complete albums, they just don't do it for me. I'm glad they do for others.

i understand totally. That's why i don't really rank the albums..it changes all the time. Some albums are good for certain times, and sometimes the same album drops right off altogether..that's a good thing too though.

In other cases (mainly with other bands though) it can take years for an album to click and finally make sense. That's my experience though, by no means a general rule.

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Where do you live?

You really want to know? I don't think I'll be viewed the same way if I told you.

India?

Pakistan. Only because you insisted.

Oh wow.

Do the band have much of a following over there?

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Where do you live?

You really want to know? I don't think I'll be viewed the same way if I told you.

India?

Pakistan. Only because you insisted.

Oh wow.

Do the band have much of a following over there?

In the general public, not really. I know a couple of friends who are fans (casual). I don't think I know anyone with a Ten Club membership. Ironically, Creed was pretty big here a while back. However, the local rock bands all know about PJ and there are a few imitators. I've attended local shows where bands covered Jeremy. There's even a band called Corduroy here. It's said their singer sounds more like Eddie Vedder than Eddie Vedder himself. Don't know if they're around anymore.

FWIW, Sirens was played a few times on radio which surprised me. But generally, it's just pop with maybe some classic rock or metal thrown in. Very occasionally, they play stuff from the 90s and I get to hear Jeremy or Last Kiss. That's about it.

dimejinky99 wrote:Glory days...well they'll pass you by, glory days...

this forum's theme song

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I think a lot of PJ's existing fanbase, perhaps even a majority, includes people outside of RM who have tastes similar to mine and Stip's. Which is to say, we don't really like the middle period albums. We've learned to live with them because we had to. But we'd rather they make records in the vein of LB or Backspacer than have to sit through another Binaural or Riot Act.

My impression from lurking The Pit, which is my only other insight into the Pearl Jam fanbase at large, is that the last two records aren't any more well-loved there than here.

The general consensus, as far as I'm able to tell, is that the band's 90s records (all of them) are held in higher esteem than anything that came after.

That's probably true.

Heathen wrote:You guys sound like the middle period was a time of completely weird/difficult music, when it was mostly pop/rock songs with nothing overtly experimental about them. OMG some of it was a little more subdued than Ten! To think these albums required some high level of investment to be enjoyed is completely absurd.

Look, all of this is taking place within the boundaries of the pearl jam universe. But within that universe, I think Release_Me's point is broadly applicable.

dimejinky99 wrote:

Release_Me wrote:For the sake of argument, generalizations are convenient. It's true that the middle period has Given To Fly which is probably one of the best and most radio friendly songs they've ever made.

It is my opinion that overall, No Code-Riot Act (sans Yield which is underwhelming for other reasons) are more difficult listens than their early stuff. By difficult, I don't mean completely left field or highly experimental. Maybe experimental for this band. Mainly, I think these albums suffer due to lesser melodies (here I go again) and are just too subdued. For example, none of the rockers from Binaural really feels like it belongs in the company of what this band had done prior to No Code. They're rocking out but something's missing. I know this forum is a big fan of Binaural so I don't know if my point will register. But there's just a completely different feel when you listen to Alive, Jeremy, RVM, Corduroy, etc. and then listen to Breakerfall, God's Dice, Insignificance. I don't even know if I can explain it clearly. There was an immediate feeling that you're listening to something special with those earlier songs. These songs, while they do have their merits, are not on par for this listener.

I think that's more to do with familiarity rather than quality. We all have different yard sticks when it comes to the catalogue, so it's easy to be misty eyed about the earlier work as it relates to our own youth and experiences with the music/band at the time.

There's probably something to this as well. Not everything, but something.

Pearl Jam is the only band of my youth to stick around. They were young and so was I. This is different from a band like, REM which was already an older band when I got into them in the early 90s. They weren't a teenage band and so they weren't invested with the optimism and millennial expectations of youth. They were just a great band making great music that I liked a lot. Pearl Jam, Nirvana, the Pumpkins, and their fellow travelers occupied a different space and spoke to the future and possibility and promises to be kept. And it is hard to watch that age alongside you because there is a part of us that is so desperate to keep them young. There's an extra edge of resentment (and while many will deny it it is clearly, I think, present here--and understandably so) because when a band like that ages it becomes that much harder to the part of us that wants to be young forever from vanishing. It's like confronting your own mortality, in a soft way.

stip wrote:

Heathen wrote:You guys sound like the middle period was a time of completely weird/difficult music, when it was mostly pop/rock songs with nothing overtly experimental about them. OMG some of it was a little more subdued than Ten! To think these albums required some high level of investment to be enjoyed is completely absurd.

Look, all of this is taking place within the boundaries of the pearl jam universe. But within that universe, I think Release_Me's point is broadly applicable.

That universe seems very stupid then.