Red Mosquito

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you.

and i'd say it changes depending on the song, when it's played during a show, what the recording quality is (studio & bootleg), and how many times it's been played.

I think adding a bass will be a drastic change in LB.

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you.

and i'd say it changes depending on the song, when it's played during a show, what the recording quality is (studio & bootleg), and how many times it's been played.

OK. So at the very least, the answer to your question is 'It depends on a lot of factors, but possibly quite a lot.'

recognizing, with all that said, that the differences between studio and live are not that significant... but they do exist.

In some songs, they're very significant indeed. In others, not so much. I don't understand why you wouldn't acknowledge that.

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

i'd say we have a pretty-good idea of what LB & FD are as songs. i'm looking forward to hearing them more (studio & live), but i'm not expecting studio jeremy -> jeremy II changes. you know?

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

i'd say we have a pretty-good idea of what LB & FD are as songs. i'm looking forward to hearing them more (studio & live), but i'm not expecting studio jeremy -> jeremy II changes. you know?

Right. Sometimes it doesn't take that drastic of a change to change an opinion on a song.

Thejambi wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you.

and i'd say it changes depending on the song, when it's played during a show, what the recording quality is (studio & bootleg), and how many times it's been played.

I think adding a bass will be a drastic change in LB.

I couldn't even hear the upright bass on the live version of FD. Significant improvement already. Add some slide guitar and turn up Boom's already nice organ chords, it's halfway to a decent song. These studio decisions are significant to me; they're all part of the songwriting. It seems to me that some people on RM think that studio decisions are unnecessary decoration, and that the song is the song even without them. I disagree. If Bob Dylan played all of his stuff on 80s synth and keytar, I doubt he'd be as popular.

Thejambi wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

i'd say we have a pretty-good idea of what LB & FD are as songs. i'm looking forward to hearing them more (studio & live), but i'm not expecting studio jeremy -> jeremy II changes. you know?

Right. Sometimes it doesn't take that drastic of a change to change an opinion on a song.

I don't think Jeremy II sounds any more different to studio Jeremy than the vast majority of live PJ sounds to studio PJ. To me the difference is exactly equivalent.

harmless wrote:

Thejambi wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

i'd say we have a pretty-good idea of what LB & FD are as songs. i'm looking forward to hearing them more (studio & live), but i'm not expecting studio jeremy -> jeremy II changes. you know?

Right. Sometimes it doesn't take that drastic of a change to change an opinion on a song.

I don't think Jeremy II sounds any more different to studio Jeremy than the vast majority of live PJ sounds to studio PJ. To me the difference is exactly equivalent.

I can't support this.

I'm trying hard to think of a bad Pearl Jam song that I think is a good or great song in the studio because it was produced so well. I can't think of one. I certainly wouldn't say that the way a song is produced has no bearing, or not even a significant one, but I think there's a limit to what it can do.

Think of your favourite PJ song, and then imagine all of the ways the same song could totally suck. If you can't think of any, you're probably lacking in imagination.

digster wrote:I'm trying hard to think of a bad Pearl Jam song that I think is a good or great song in the studio because it was produced so well. I can't think of one.

Fine. However, if you can't think of a good PJ studio song that was fucked up when they played it live, we're not listening to the same band.

And again, it's worth repeating that none of these LB songs are *bad* songs imo.

i think you may be reading a little too much into what i'm saying.

i agree with you, i think most of us posting with you this morning agree with you.

where we differ is with regard to how significant the change will be between studio & live, but we've got 60+ days to learn that.

Production and studio 'magic', by the way, is what made me think Supersonic was good for at least a few weeks. And it's what makes some people still think Big Wave is good.

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

I know you haven't, that was kind of my point. People saying it will be terrible because Pearl Jam songs are the same live as in the studio aren't making a whole lot of sense. Was it you who just posted about the spoken word backing vocals in Breakerfall? That's a perfect example. It's something that adds a ton to the studio version of the song, but it doesn't come through live at all.

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

harmless wrote:Or to put it another way, these live LB songs are as good as they'll get.

i've read some posts this way as well. but to be fair, how much is a song really going to change in the studio version?

Do we have to do this again? There are probably several threads where I've already answered this.

no, it was mostly rhetorical.

Oh, OK.

Well, the thing is, I'd have to turn the question back to you. How much does a song change when taken from the studio version to a live stage? Not at all, a little, or a lot? There's your answer, for you. For me, PJ live versions are frequently diminished versions of their songs.

To me, any given PJ song can fit into any of those three categories, and even a single song can change from night to night. That's why I don't think we can really make any assumptions about what the album version will sound like. We just genuinely don't know.

I've not made any assumptions. But neither have I made the assumption that these songs will suck just because their live versions suck, and others around here have.

I know you haven't, that was kind of my point. People saying it will be terrible because Pearl Jam songs are the same live as in the studio aren't making a whole lot of sense. Was it you who just posted about the spoken word backing vocals in Breakerfall? That's a perfect example. It's something that adds a ton to the studio version of the song, but it doesn't come through live at all.

Parachutes. I absolutely hated that song off of the album. The recording and vocals both sound like trash to me. Hearing it live, even though it is pretty much the same song, totally transformed my feelings towards it. It gave me a totally different frame of reference that helped me get past the album versions short comings.

Not For You. I hated it when i first heard it (SNL 94). I thought it was loud, abrasive and annoying. When i got Vitalogy I actually liked it a hell of a lot more. All the little things were more audible and dynamic. The little things elevated it and the overall tone was more appealing to me.

Here's my very general rule of thumb on this topic....
The songs from the first few albums were better live (and some still are).
The last few albums have been better in the studio.

Thejambi wrote:Parachutes. I absolutely hated that song off of the album. The recording and vocals both sound like trash to me. Hearing it live, even though it is pretty much the same song, totally transformed my feelings towards it. It gave me a totally different frame of reference that helped me get past the album versions short comings.

Not For You. I hated it when i first heard it (SNL 94). I thought it was loud, abrasive and annoying. When i got Vitalogy I actually liked it a hell of a lot more. All the little things were more audible and dynamic. The little things elevated it and the overall tone was more appealing to me.

i had that same experience with NFY

stip wrote:

Thejambi wrote:Parachutes. I absolutely hated that song off of the album. The recording and vocals both sound like trash to me. Hearing it live, even though it is pretty much the same song, totally transformed my feelings towards it. It gave me a totally different frame of reference that helped me get past the album versions short comings.

Not For You. I hated it when i first heard it (SNL 94). I thought it was loud, abrasive and annoying. When i got Vitalogy I actually liked it a hell of a lot more. All the little things were more audible and dynamic. The little things elevated it and the overall tone was more appealing to me.

i had that same experience with NFY

I had that opposite experience with NFY

Not really. I love the studio cut. But I loved that SNL performance, too.