Red Mosquito

lol @ kids in Australia having VHS tapes

cutuphalfdead wrote:lol @ kids in Australia having VHS tapes

They've got a DVD player in their playroom too, but the DVDs are not freely accessible to them (we get them out for them). But they've got a massive stack of videos and a VCR that they can use freely.

It says something about the advances in technology, the videos are 100x more robust than DVD/bluray.

next time you think you have too much time on your hands think of these guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfLX_TMduY#t=622

McParadigm wrote:Q: remember how our heroes saved the day by destroying the Empire and Darth Vader redeemed himself by defeating the Sith?

A: no, because then we would have to think of our own story to tell.

Guys, I'm sorry to be the one to have to say this, but Star Wars IS basically two stories. It's the skywalker family story, and it's the rebels vs. the empire story. take these things away and you don't have star wars. You have space adventures with laser swords.

Maybe you can argue that there is no more need to tell more star wars stories, but if you're going to do it, this is what you should focus on. And seeing the fallout from the end of Jedi (and I am fine with the world not getting wrapped up in a nice neat little bow after the evil empire suffers a huge defeat--remember election day 2008?) would be cool. Movies rarely talk about what happens afterwards because they don't want to undermine the happy ending.

Likewise, showing some more backstory and doing it WELL (the big caveat) could also be really cool. And I think Abrams is the right person to do it. The legit complaints about the reboots of Star Trek (that it's telling the same stories) is a problem because it is a reboot--the old stories happened, but you're pretending that they didn't. I think he's an excellent choice, however, for someone who needs to expand the existing universe in a way that feels like an organic continuation of the story precisely because he will show the right kind of reverence for the source material.

Most of the world will cheer their asses off the first time they get to see the Millennium Falcon in action after 20+ years. They'll cheer to see Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and Chewbaca. If done well. The prequel stuff with the droids, boba fett, etc. was stupid because it wasn't necessary. It felt like it was being forced into the story (and it was). But if you're tracking the same characters, world historic figures who will not just go retire on a farm somewhere, then seeing this stuff again can make a lot of sense. Suddenly turning yoda into a gummie bear was, in retrospect, stupid, because it altered who and what he was. Including Yoda was not.

Guys...Team Stip.

Yeah, Stip nailed it.

But I'm a pretty massive fan of Abrams (especially his work on Trek), so what do I know?

stip wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Q: remember how our heroes saved the day by destroying the Empire and Darth Vader redeemed himself by defeating the Sith?

A: no, because then we would have to think of our own story to tell.

Guys, I'm sorry to be the one to have to say this, but Star Wars IS basically two stories. It's the skywalker family story, and it's the rebels vs. the empire story. take these things away and you don't have star wars. You have space adventures with laser swords.

I think the only time Star Wars has been remotely interesting to me in the last 15 years was when my son had to come home sick from school, and we sat and watched a Clone Wars two or three parter about a group of clone soldiers having to handle an inept or corrupt general who was basically getting them slaughtered. I don't know if that was an unusual storyline for that show or what (he only ever had a passing interest in Star Wars, really, so we never watched more than a few episodes), but we both enjoyed it. No Empire, no Skywalkers, no Jedi of any real significance. No banking on "hey remember this fucking thing?" shots or throwback lines to keep you watching. Just using an engaging, established universe's designs to tell an interesting story.

But actually, you touch on exactly why Star Wars looks identical to Pearl Jam to me these days. Both were things that seemed magical (in a naive way) once, but seemed less so the more of what's out there you discovered....and which now seem to value themselves solely for their familiarity, popularity, and ease-of-use. They are part of a culture that trades almost entirely on convenience, branding, and on your memories of the past.

They are the McDonald's hamburger.

And I think Abrams is the right person to do it.

He's a perfectly unremarkable director, neither great nor terrible. He seems to be good at adding energy to something that's sorely lacking it, but not at adding anything to the characters, story, or universe. That makes him a pretty good director for people who want to be able to sit and pretend for 130 minutes that an old thing is new again, but not the best choice if you are hoping to extend that audience contract for another ten years. He is a good strategic choice for a company that needs to quickly defibrillate a dying product before it can get around to talking long term plans.

Really, you said it yourself: people will cheer when they see the Millenium Falcon. They'll get a rush when Luke Skywalker steps onscreen and lowers his hood. They'll laugh out loud at every last "remember this" joke.

But it won't be this story they're cheering for. It'll be something that's already happened. They won't be all that unlike most of the people who show up to see a 2014 Pearl Jam concert. No, I haven't heard the new record. No, I don't really want to. I like Even Flow though. I have the greatest hits. Oh I think I know this one; it's about Sirens right? Wee.

cutuphalfdead wrote:lol @ kids in Australia having VHS tapes

Do the tape heads spin in the opposite direction?

Do you even know the Empire is in this movie? Maybe those helmets are going to be on Stormtropper corpses laying around.

I absolutely agree with McP that Star Wars doesn't need the Skywalkers or the Empire to be fantastic. I never ventured much into the EU, but when I did I always gravitated toward the long ago stories, the histories, the stuff that far proceeded the original trilogy timeline. Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War is fantastic.

So, while I'm mostly team Stip on this one, I see McP's larger point. And he's not wrong. But I'm fine with this trilogy -- Ep VII especially being that nostalgia bridge.

What I'm far more interested in seeing is what happens beyond the Skywalker story.

And I never watched the Clone Wars series. People say it was great though.

But really, Star Wars has never meant as much to me as it has to others. It's fun. But even the original trilogy is pretty flawed and obnoxious at times. My expectations aren't through the roof for any of this. Though Stip is right, Abrams is the best man for this particular job.

McParadigm wrote:

stip wrote:

McParadigm wrote:Q: remember how our heroes saved the day by destroying the Empire and Darth Vader redeemed himself by defeating the Sith?

A: no, because then we would have to think of our own story to tell.

Guys, I'm sorry to be the one to have to say this, but Star Wars IS basically two stories. It's the skywalker family story, and it's the rebels vs. the empire story. take these things away and you don't have star wars. You have space adventures with laser swords.

I think the only time Star Wars has been remotely interesting to me in the last 15 years was when my son had to come home sick from school, and we sat and watched a Clone Wars two or three parter about a group of clone soldiers having to handle an inept or corrupt general who was basically getting them slaughtered. I don't know if that was an unusual storyline for that show or what (he only ever had a passing interest in Star Wars, really, so we never watched more than a few episodes), but we both enjoyed it. No Empire, no Skywalkers, no Jedi of any real significance. No banking on "hey remember this fucking thing?" shots or throwback lines to keep you watching. Just using an engaging, established universe's designs to tell an interesting story.

But actually, you touch on exactly why Star Wars looks identical to Pearl Jam to me these days. Both were things that seemed magical (in a naive way) once, but seemed less so the more of what's out there you discovered....and which now seem to value themselves solely for their familiarity, popularity, and ease-of-use. They are part of a culture that trades almost entirely on convenience, branding, and on your memories of the past.

They are the McDonald's hamburger.

And I think Abrams is the right person to do it.

He's a perfectly unremarkable director, neither great nor terrible. He seems to be good at adding energy to something that's sorely lacking it, but not at adding anything to the characters, story, or universe. That makes him a pretty good director for people who want to be able to sit and pretend for 130 minutes that an old thing is new again, but not the best choice if you are hoping to extend that audience contract for another ten years. He is a good strategic choice for a company that needs to quickly defibrillate a dying product before it can get around to talking long term plans.

Really, you said it yourself: people will cheer when they see the Millenium Falcon. They'll get a rush when Luke Skywalker steps onscreen and lowers his hood. They'll laugh out loud at every last "remember this" joke.

But it won't be this story they're cheering for. It'll be something that's already happened. They won't be all that unlike most of the people who show up to see a 2014 Pearl Jam concert. No, I haven't heard the new record. No, I don't really want to. I like Even Flow though. I have the greatest hits. Oh I think I know this one; it's about Sirens right? Wee.

This is fairly condescending, even by your lofty standards. I'm just throwing this out there, but people can actually maintain a genuine emotional connection to and enjoyment of material that you've left behind. From a research perspective if nothing else, it might not be a bad idea to actually go to a pearl jam concert (for instance) to see what they're actually like, instead of what you've imagined them to be.

There are certainly elements of star wars that serve no purpose except to serve as something that can be commodified and sold. But it is also part of a common cultural inheritance--the stories that bind us together as a people. There's more to do that then the reproduction of images. There's a reason that the prequels were so unsatisfying. They were an insult to that heritage. It's not that people just want to see things they remember. They want new experiences built on the framework of existing memories and shared understandings.

durdencommatyler wrote:But really, Star Wars has never meant as much to me as it has to others. It's fun. But even the original trilogy is pretty flawed and obnoxious at times. My expectations aren't through the roof for any of this. Though Stip is right, Abrams is the best man for this particular job.

yeah, the prequels actually diminished my overall love of the star wars universe quite a bit. I haven't paid attention to anything other than the redlettermedia takedowns of prequels in years and years.

stip wrote:There are certainly elements of star wars that serve no purpose except to serve as something that can be commodified and sold. But it is also part of a common cultural inheritance--the stories that bind us together as a people. There's more to do that then the reproduction of images. There's a reason that the prequels were so unsatisfying. They were an insult to that heritage. It's not that people just want to see things they remember. They want new experiences built on the framework of existing memories and shared understandings.

Getting away from McP's comments, but sort of spring boarding off your earlier comments -- do you think Star Wars can tell successful, compelling stories that don't revolve around the Empire and/or Han, Luke & Leia?

It has to be possible to build those new experiences on the old framework but expanding further out, right?

stip wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:But really, Star Wars has never meant as much to me as it has to others. It's fun. But even the original trilogy is pretty flawed and obnoxious at times. My expectations aren't through the roof for any of this. Though Stip is right, Abrams is the best man for this particular job.

yeah, the prequels actually diminished my overall love of the star wars universe quite a bit. I haven't paid attention to anything other than the redlettermedia takedowns of prequels in years and years.

Same. They really knocked the wind out of the whole thing for me. Those and Lucas' constant fiddling with the originals.

durdencommatyler wrote:But I'm fine with this trilogy -- Ep VII especially being that nostalgia bridge.

A bridge is a good metaphor for what the first movie ought to be, yeah. And JJ is a good director for just such a thing.

All these "we'll have a Boba Fett movie" ideas bouncing around seem to suggest that it'll be a long and crowded bridge, though. Plus, I'd wager that a perfectly adequate and financially successful movie will get held up as the new gold standard by execs, rather than being treated as the first step towards something more.

I'm still enjoying the unintended humor of those Han Solo costume design drawings. "We're thinking that, here, he might wear a heavy blue parka." "Can you draw me a picture of how that will look on him? I'm having a hard time picturing it." "Uh..."

This is fairly condescending, even by your lofty standards.

A careful observer might note that nearly all of my posting occurs during normal work hours, and thus surmise that I am terribly bored and simply passing the time by intentionally making people angry at me about things I openly don't care about, like Pearl Jam and Star Wars.

This person would be terribly, terribly wrong, I assure you.

I'm just throwing this out there, but people can actually maintain a genuine emotional connection to and enjoyment of material that you've left behind.

I didn't say they couldn't. Although obviously they couldn't.

From a research perspective if nothing else, it might not be a bad idea to actually go to a pearl jam concert (for instance) to see what they're actually like, instead of what you've imagined them to be.

Oh, don't worry. It's on my "go purely for research purposes" list. Right after massage parlor and whaling.

Those are both on the list a lot, though, so....

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:There are certainly elements of star wars that serve no purpose except to serve as something that can be commodified and sold. But it is also part of a common cultural inheritance--the stories that bind us together as a people. There's more to do that then the reproduction of images. There's a reason that the prequels were so unsatisfying. They were an insult to that heritage. It's not that people just want to see things they remember. They want new experiences built on the framework of existing memories and shared understandings.

Getting away from McP's comments, but sort of spring boarding off your earlier comments -- do you think Star Wars can tell successful, compelling stories that don't revolve around the Empire and/or Han, Luke & Leia?

It has to be possible to build those new experiences on the old framework but expanding further out, right?

Yes and no. I think there are lots of good stories that you can tell in the star wars universe because there are lots of good stories you can tell everywhere. You certainly don't need the traditional characters or the main skywlaker/empire story arc to do that.

But if you want something to be STAR WARS with everything that entails, I do think you need a connection to that original story. If you tell that story properly you can create some new parts of the mythology that become worth exploring in their own right. I think the prequels tried to do that, and failed spectacularly. Not just the obi-wan/vader story (which is in the Abrams vein) but with stories like the Clone Wars. The movies were so bad that this part of the expanded universe has no wider resonance. It's not that you can't tell good stories, or find people that will want to hear them. But they're not Star Wars.


Star Wars is our Illiad. This is the second attempt to tell the Odyssey

McParadigm wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:But I'm fine with this trilogy -- Ep VII especially being that nostalgia bridge.

A bridge is a good metaphor for what the first movie ought to be, yeah. And JJ is a good director for just such a thing.

All these "we'll have a Boba Fett movie" ideas bouncing around seem to suggest that it'll be a long and crowded bridge, though. Plus, I'd wager that a perfectly adequate and financially successful movie will get held up as the new gold standard by execs, rather than being treated as the first step towards something more.

I'm still enjoying the unintended humor of those Han Solo costume design drawings. "We're thinking that, here, he might wear a heavy blue parka." "Can you draw me a picture of how that will look on him? I'm having a hard time picturing it." "Uh..."

This is fairly condescending, even by your lofty standards.

A careful observer might note that nearly all of my posting occurs during normal work hours, and thus surmise that I am terribly bored and simply passing the time by intentionally making people angry at me about things I openly don't care about, like Pearl Jam and Star Wars.

This person would be terribly, terribly wrong, I assure you.

I'm just throwing this out there, but people can actually maintain a genuine emotional connection to and enjoyment of material that you've left behind.

I didn't say they couldn't. Although obviously they couldn't.

From a research perspective if nothing else, it might not be a bad idea to actually go to a pearl jam concert (for instance) to see what they're actually like, instead of what you've imagined them to be.

Oh, don't worry. It's on my "go purely for research purposes" list. Right after massage parlor and whaling.

Those are both on the list a lot, though, so....

I'm sure there's some Japanese company that combines them. We're not getting younger. You need to be efficient with your time

Wish I never put the hose down. Wish I never got old.

Actually, to extend an olive branch here, I agree that some stuff like the Boba Fett story probably smacks of what McP is talking about. If they can create excitement about their primary story then they should be able to spin stuff off and have it be successful without having to give Boba Fett a movie.

But the main intertwined story Empire/Rebellion/Skywalker is the core of the universe, and i think can be tapped in a meaningful and important way, and probably has to be if you want to not only tell other stories, but have them be something more than a good story that happens to take place in a star wars universe.