Red Mosquito

MemoFromTurner wrote:

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:I don't think I listen to anything for nostalgic reasons. I listen if I like it, even a little bit. If I don't like something I'll go off it and not listen, like plenty of bands from my childhood, and like most of S/T and Backspacer. I guess if the nostalgia argument held up, I'd still be listening to Green Jelly or Ugly Kid Joe.

I don't know if there's a nostalgia aspect, but I definitely am sure I give PJ a pass due to them being such an important band to me. I pop in Backspacer or S/T every once in a while; I just can't see me ever listening to those records if it wasn't this band, or another band that has a similar stature for me.

This is true. I just don't think that can be boiled down to nostalgia. It's attachment, it's trust, the same thing that keeps you in love for the same amount of time and longer. We don't stay married because we're nostalgic for our wedding day, and we don't still listen to our favourite bands because of old material. We listen to them because however lacklustre they've been, they've never let us down to such an extent there's any reason to drop them.

The marriage analogy is tired and obvious but also apt. In 1991 I trusted Pearl Jam would continue to make great music after Ten and that they'd stick together. I trusted they would evolve as a band and not embarrass me by sucking, repeating themselves artistically, or breaking up. My marriage to the band has been a success (producing 6 or 7 amazing kids!) but now we're in those delicate mid-life crisis years when the looks have faded, the stories have grown stale and patterns have begun to grate.

If I get to the point where I have to honestly admit that the band is producing garbage and should pull the plug it will be a painful day. The buzz coming out of the Pearl Jam camp is that an amazing album is dropping in October. The band and I are in marriage therapy. I remain optimistic despite some ominous signs.

The major flaw in this analogy is that there isn't any real, dramatic consequence to the fact of "leaving" a band as opposed to a marriage/family/etc. There is no need for therapy. You can just say fuck it, it's not painful. At this point Pearl Jam to me is more like old friends you used to have the best time with but then life happened and you realize after all these years you really don't have much in common anymore and if you met them now for the first time you'd probably never become friends. You still keep them in your Facebook contacts so you don't miss their birthday.

digster wrote:

stip wrote:
Having said that, there are definitely a number of posts (or maybe it is just a few people posting it a lot) that seem to really be down on new material because it isn't dark enough---that if it isn't tortured it somehow isn't pearl jam. And yet many of those posters are also highlighting yield as an example of a record that they really love. It's sometimes hard to picture Yield and Ten being by the same band, thematically, especially if you really shackle what pearl jam music has to be to the dark brooding early albums.

Now if you don't like this new stuff because you don't think the songs are sonically interesting that's very different (and not what I was responding to). it's a separate line of criticism, and one that I (personally) think is a lot more valid, even if I don't necessarily share it. And I suspect many people who make the above argument are really just not happy with the way the songs sound and are looking to complicate that fact for whatever reason.

I have to admit, it does sometimes seem like you're aiming for the easiest targets, at least when it comes to the "PJ must write tortured music" contingent. I'm sure there are some people that just want their PJ to be darker, but I think many other people that bring it up do so simply as a shorthand for looking at what PJ has done in the past, seeing the songs that they have written that they feel to be their best, and hope to get songs that good again, or at least in the general ballpark. I think the extremely positive reaction to No Code and Yield shows that an optimistic PJ can hit a home run with their fans here.

It just seems like a lot of times, when old vs. new material comes up, some posters who enjoy the new stuff can sometimes project that there must be some reason that people don't like the new material, some hitch in the prejudices they're bringing to the table, instead of a good chunk of posters here simply thinking the band is writing poor songs, especially considering the caliber of their talents. How many of those Backspacer discussions devolved into a back-and-forth about how people didn't like it cause it was 'happy, poppy' PJ, and they just couldn't get their brains around PJ making that type of music? It's not to say that this is on you or anything like that, but merely that it seems like that line of thinking isn't that uncommon and it kind of does a disservice to people that have some pretty clear-headed opinions and ideas about what they think the band is doing wrong creatively.

At the same time though, the kind of posting/arguments I am railing about almost always been invisible to you. In these recent threads multiple people have explicitly stated that they want their pearl jam to be dark and brooding and once they got happy (or rich) they stopped writing good music. It is a pretty common assumption around here. Not ubiquitous, but common. And almost never defended in a way that is interesting, insightful, or even coherent. It sure does take up a lot of posting real estate, though.



I almost always add the caveat when I am making statements like that that there will be people who are taking issues with the songs as songs without adding that stupid narrative to their opinion. We have many interesting discussions about how music has changed (beyond 'oh they got happy') and how this has led to what many people feel is an artistic decline. This is an interesting and worthwhile conversation, and it does the board credit and is worth everyone's time. It's the 'negative' contribution of the board. That's why I post here. It is worth reading and engaging even if you don't agree with it. And fortunately plenty of posters make those arguments. But that other crap gets in the way of it--even if the conclusions are similar. I also understand why someone like you, who does (imo) say insightful and intelligent things, might think that this is directed at you. It's a real consequence of blanket condemnations, and a problem.


The same sort of vacuous positive posting would be equally as useless and counterproductive, but that doesn't seem to be a problem we have. I don't want RM to read like the comments thread of a youtube page. But too often we get the negative version of the same thing. Red Mosquito can be as much of a parody of fandom as the main board, and every bit as reflexively stupid as that place can sometimes be. I have less patience for it here because this is where I like to post, I perhaps narcissisticly feel at least partially responsible for the quality of conversation here (not that I create it but that I am answerable for it) , and because there are enough really articulate and interesting people here for their to be no need for it.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:Riot Act is much more interesting than Binaural. *cough*

true, but these are sitting at the bottom of the catalog for me. They are such joyless albums. If a pearl jam album starts to feel like a slog something went wrong.

I quite like a joyless slog if it entertains my ears. You've heard Joy Division right?

a little bit. But if you're entertained a listen can be difficult without being 'work'

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

harmless wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

harmless wrote:They're just not. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

But they're definitely not. But sometimes they are. But no.

I just cannot fathom why you wouldn't be at least curious to see whether Unthought Known had become GTF in the studio.

Edit: I mean a general you, 'one', not you personally.

Well, I'm thoroughly confused.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

I don't know whether that sentence is really hard to understand or whether you're all just pretending to be dumb because you think it's funny.

verb_to_trust wrote: There is a difference between songs about pain and suffering and songs that are at least interesting thematically. I need something I can relate to, especially if the music is going to sound fairly generic.

That's a fair point and I agree. I can relate to "Skipping" and think it's a nice song, but I don't want an album about being a dad. I interpreted your post to be a snarky "Looks like PJ made a new Creed album" thing, so I am sorry if had that wrong. The new material is not groundbreaking, but MYM was a better fit live than anything on backspacer for the last two shows, so I remain pretty upbeat. I would say this is the most upbeat I have been as a fan since just after the Avocado tour.

Kevin Davis wrote:

broken iris wrote:Not every song needs to be about pain and suffering and frankly 50 year old celebrity multimillionaires sound disingenuous when singing about the struggles of our modern times.

Yeah, I realized after I posted that someone was gonna post Dylan, and it's a good point, but Eddie Vedder is not him. Eddie is the big frontman rockstar that Dylan never was, even if he still tries to hide it. I sometimes think Pearl Jam gets the mantel of being the "American rock band of their generation" simply because they have held on for so long. Here's hoping they hold on a little longer.

it's always tough to compare solo artists (or quasi solo artists like springsteen) to bands, too, since solo artists only have to serve one muse.


I agree about skipping. It's a nice song and I'm glad it exists, but it's not really meant for an album. KD had a good post about that somewhere.

stip wrote:The same sort of vacuous positive posting would be equally as useless and counterproductive, but that doesn't seem to be a problem we have.

We do have vacuous positive posting just like we have vacuous negative posting. I don't think either is a problem, but you seem to think only the latter is.

Well it's a question of proportionality. There is far less of the vacuous positive stuff and it tends to not color conversations the same way. It leaves a much smaller footprint. New posters leave RM all the time because of the negativity (or feel intimidated to post). No one, to my knowledge, has come here and decided that this place is too hyper accepting of everything pearl jam does.


And you could very well be right in that this bothers me way out of proportion to what it should.

harmless wrote:

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

harmless wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

harmless wrote:They're just not. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

But they're definitely not. But sometimes they are. But no.

I just cannot fathom why you wouldn't be at least curious to see whether Unthought Known had become GTF in the studio.

Edit: I mean a general you, 'one', not you personally.

Well, I'm thoroughly confused.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

I don't know whether that sentence is really hard to understand or whether you're all just pretending to be dumb because you think it's funny.

Google the question that theplatypus asked, it's a classic meme. I wasn't having a go at you at all man, I was going with the flow of gibberish.

harmless wrote:Woah, something got negative in here last night.

Look, I don't know why the '50 year-old billionaires singing happy songs' came up, or where it comes from. Let's be honest, they would be 50 year-old billionaires whatever they were singing about, so in the end all that complaint means is 'I don't want any uplifting songs about family and kids'. Which is fine, but it has nothing to do with their age or their bank accounts; it's just that you're not into that kind of song.

I dunno... I don't want songs that attempt to mine emotions that are so long gone for them that it comes off as fake. I don't think 2013 PJ should writing the about the same themes as 1990-1995 PJ. There is nothing wrong with love songs or more upbeat messages (or darker themes) as long as the music fits together on the album. Most of their fan base is mature enough to the point where we aren't trying to fight the power and save the world, and it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the songs were reflective of that.

So far these three kinda fit for me (even OTE if we want to assume that will be on the record), so I am happy with them and looking forward to the new album.

harmless wrote:
I think we'll get an album which is better than Backspacer, possibly on the level of S/T but with better production, and I'm looking forward to that. I like the version of Speed of Sound from Backspacer. I liked Just Breathe from Backspacer. I liked The End from Backspacer. So if this little FD ditty turns into either of those, but on a better album, I can throw out Backspacer and be happy with this one. Same with LB, which is like UK but much better.

While I don't like JB or SoS(sounded good during the soundcheck for Wrigley though), I did enjoy hearing FD at the show so I am on board with this.

stip wrote:Well it's a question of proportionality. There is far less of the vacuous positive stuff and it tends to not color conversations the same way. It leaves a much smaller footprint. New posters leave RM all the time because of the negativity (or feel intimidated to post). No one, to my knowledge, has come here and decided that this place is too hyper accepting of everything pearl jam does.


And you could very well be right in that this bothers me way out of proportion to what it should.

I guess this won't be settled until someone actually does the math but I just don't think there is that much more negative posting than positive posting, hell I wouldn't be surprised if it were the other way around (because everytime someone says 'this album rocks', 'this song is great', 'wws is a top 5 song' etc. it's positive posting that doesn't bring much to the table, and again, there's nothing problematic about that).

Basically... harmless himself probably makes up for 50% of the posting on the forum and on every single matter he's just as depressingly negative as he is positive and optimistic, so it has to be pretty balanced, right? If you ban chud it's not even a question anymore.

Heathen wrote:Basically... harmless himself probably makes up for 50% of the posting on the forum

That's a little unfair.

Spoiler: show

It's, like, 65% at least.

i like what i've heard so far. i'm looking forward to October.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Heathen wrote:Basically... harmless himself probably makes up for 50% of the posting on the forum

That's a little unfair.

Spoiler: show

It's, like, 65% at least.

Yeah and it's like 95% about Matt Cameron.

elliseamos wrote:i like what i've heard so far. i'm looking forward to October.

Uh, aren't you supposed to be in the no leak club? I still haven't listened to Lightning Bolt and Future Days. I'm still King of the County.

EJ wrote:

elliseamos wrote:i like what i've heard so far. i'm looking forward to October.

Uh, aren't you supposed to be in the no leak club? I still haven't listened to Lightning Bolt and Future Days. I'm still King of the County.

it's not a leak, i've heard the live versions of the two new songs and i pre ordered the album so i've got the MYM flac

my stance has always been that i'll hear listen once the bands wants it out, but not before.

elliseamos wrote:

EJ wrote:

elliseamos wrote:i like what i've heard so far. i'm looking forward to October.

Uh, aren't you supposed to be in the no leak club? I still haven't listened to Lightning Bolt and Future Days. I'm still King of the County.

it's not a leak, i've heard the live versions of the two new songs and i pre ordered the album so i've got the MYM flac

You've failed me.

EJ wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

EJ wrote:

elliseamos wrote:i like what i've heard so far. i'm looking forward to October.

Uh, aren't you supposed to be in the no leak club? I still haven't listened to Lightning Bolt and Future Days. I'm still King of the County.

it's not a leak, i've heard the live versions of the two new songs and i pre ordered the album so i've got the MYM flac

You've failed me.

Thejambi wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Heathen wrote:Basically... harmless himself probably makes up for 50% of the posting on the forum

That's a little unfair.

Spoiler: show

It's, like, 65% at least.

Yeah and it's like 95% about Matt Cameron.

Does that mean that at least 61.75% of the posts in RM are about Matt Cameron?