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Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 10:58 am
by stip
iceagecoming wrote:Stip you've left out Comatose and The Fixer too. The first was played live as 'Crapshoot Rapture', and we heard the second from a rough recording of the video shoot.
true. The fixer was such horrible sound quality it is hard to compare, but it did have me excited for the song. I think I kinda liked crapshoot rapture, but I adore comatose. so that was another huge boost.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 11:01 am
by stip
verb_to_trust wrote:I know this is just one example but look at what an abortion the polished studio version of Speed of Sound turned into. The Fixer could have been a cool song too before the hatchet job Ed did to it. Sometimes more lasers and fixin aren't a good thing.
Hearing and liking a song live and subsequently liking the studio cut is still far more likely to me than hearing a song live, thinking its average and forgettable, then being wowed by the studio version. I can't even really think of a time that has happened with me for Pearl Jam. I hate to be a debbie downer but if we as fans were reasonably going to be able to expect a quality album this time around those songs needed to have popped off live. Instead, they were a piss break at best.
I didn't really think all that much of any of the backspacer songs live, and that's been my favorite PJ album in over a decade. Not to say you're wrong, but I'm still with harmless on this. I'm also not saying lightning bolt is going to be a revelation on the record either. But I think the studio context of a song can and likely will alter perceptions of it. It certainly will for me.
And it could be worse. Speed of Sound might be an example. I'd put Satan's Bed in there too.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 11:02 am
by stip
verb_to_trust wrote:And since this thread is supposed to be about Cold Confession and LIR, what if those demos or rough recordings were completely meh? Would we all be waiting with bated breath at the sonic treasures BOB and Ed could unlock with the studio versions? I'm not convinced Ed or the band really have a clue based on the production problems the last two albums had...
I doubt it. And then we might be pleasantly surprised once we did.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 11:48 am
by Release_Me
harmless wrote:Yeah, but I *did* like the Backspacer songs. Most of them still sucked live.
Then I just don't hear what you're hearing. That's all I can say.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 11:49 am
by harmless
Release_Me wrote:harmless wrote:Yeah, but I *did* like the Backspacer songs. Most of them still sucked live.
Then I just don't hear what you're hearing. That's all I can say.
Yup, that's the long and the short of it.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 11:52 am
by harmless
Of course, there is also the possibility that context alone will lift these songs slightly. If the tracklist is interesting then the songs might be more interesting together than if they were just in isolation. I would say most of Binaural and Riot Act is like this, but they're not weaker albums because of that.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 12:00 pm
by Release_Me
harmless wrote:And yes, they often are a suck-ass band live. Sorry. I feel like a lot of people are living in denial about this simple fact. If I say 'Wait to hear LB and FD in the studio before you write them off', I'm speaking as someone who will write off a PJ live performance just like that these days.
I don't know about anyone else but I am not living in denial. To me, PJ's early live performances of new songs are quite faithful to the studio versions and there are numerous examples (from their latter day career as well) which bear this out. There is not a huge discrepancy between their performances of these songs live or in studio. Aside from Ed missing a note or two or some other imperfections which often make studio versions better these days, I am not hearing anything substantially different. Are they as good a live band as they were in the early 90s? No. They were only
that good uptil about 94/95. Since then, they have deteriorated gradually, especially Ed with his consistency live. He has better technique now but the execution suffers occasionally due to the deterioration of his vocal chords, which I might add has been caused partly due to those same early performances when he didn't care much for using technique to preserve his voice. He can always sound better in studio versions now because there are multiple takes. However, the live versions of LB and FD we have heard have Ed in full form. There's not a huge difference you can expect aside from some studio embellishment on FD which will probably make it a little better.
Songs sounding better in the context of an album is always a possibility. My point is purely the 'performances' of these songs and the extent to which they could differ live and in studio.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 12:06 pm
by harmless
Ed "in full form" live is... not very good.
I just don't understand why you'd argue that PJ live has diminished considerably (as you have) and yet you still can't expect much better from a studio version. I mean, I'm really struggling with this. You're not thinking I want 'The Wheels On the Bus' to become Led Zep's 'Cashmere' in the studio, right? But you know as well as I do that while a song isn't going to become another song in the studio, it sure is hell is likely to become a better, clearer and more professionally-executed version of itself. If you can't accept that premise, we're really not on the same page and I have to wonder how carefully you listen to anything.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:04 pm
by Release_Me
I disagree. Ed in full form live is still very, very good. His singing on LB is top notch. He is definitely better than most live singers today who are still active from that period, say Chris Cornell. Cornell is a vastly superior singer to Ed but his decline has been very steep. What is true is that present day Ed isn't as good as early Ed. This is true live and in studio. Yes, he can make the more difficult songs slightly better with multiple takes in studio but it's not a huge difference.
I'm saying that PJ have diminished as a band over the years, though not to the extent that they can't put out a great album. I thought Backspacer was a great album. I don't kid myself and think they can top Vitalogy or Ten at this stage. Their decline is largely down to the decline in Ed's voice. He is singing as well as he can with the voice he has now, but the actual voice is not the same. I think Ed can sing any song from Backspacer and make it sound good live. However, he will struggle to sing a Jeremy to match anything from 92-94. Even 98 versions of Jeremy were not a patch on the early ones.
My point is that what they do in the studio now may be slightly better than what they do live but the difference is minimal. Especially when said live versions have Ed giving a good performance. If he is out of breath, struggling to hit notes, or chickening out on a difficult part, then yes. I'd wait for the studio versions before forming any kind of judgement. As it is, both LB and FD have him sounding just about as good as he can. I already said I like both songs, LB more than FD. I don't think either is a dud. I think the ending of LB could be better in the studio version as it seems Mike messed up in the live performance. Also, FD could do with some studio embellishment (the right kind). However, these are both decent performances as it is.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:24 pm
by harmless
His singing on LB really isn't 'top notch'. Or at least, if that's the top notch I have to wonder how tall the bedpost is.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:26 pm
by harmless
Other than that, I think you're assuming I'm saying a bunch of stuff I'm not saying. This is a problem not just with you, but with a lot of modern-day PJ apologists. You make one criticism and suddenly it comes with a bunch of other criticisms that you haven't even mentioned.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:30 pm
by epilogue
I like the Backspacer version of Speed of Sound more than the demo. There, I said it.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:32 pm
by harmless
durdencommatyler wrote:I like the Backspacer version of Speed of Sound more than the demo. There, I said it.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:35 pm
by WtOB?
The song, at its core, is a good song. Can we all agree on that?
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:37 pm
by stupidmop
harmless wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I like the Backspacer version of Speed of Sound more than the demo. There, I said it.
For
shaaammmee
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 2:40 pm
by harmless
WtOB? wrote:The song, at its core, is a good song. Can we all agree on that?
No. The song at its core sucks. I'm just in it for the lasers.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 3:21 pm
by stip
harmless wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I like the Backspacer version of Speed of Sound more than the demo. There, I said it.
you know, I think I do too. I think they made a lot of mistakes with the full band version that didn't live up to the potential of the demo, but if I was going to listen to one I'd listen to the full band version
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 3:23 pm
by epilogue
stip wrote:harmless wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I like the Backspacer version of Speed of Sound more than the demo. There, I said it.
you know, I think I do too. I think they made a lot of mistakes with the full band version that didn't live up to the potential of the demo, but if I was going to listen to one I'd listen to the full band version
I can get behind your first point. But, yeah, I listened to the demo again the other day and was just bored. It's a lovely little sketch, but the studio version has a lot more heart and a lot more power.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 3:26 pm
by harmless
I still really don't like 'speed of soooouuunn-DUH' though.
Re: Cold Confession and Let It Ride - Avocado Outtakes
Posted: Sat August 10, 2013 3:29 pm
by epilogue
I think I like what it evokes in me more than I actually like the song. If that makes sense. But I feel a connection to it and I love the reflective, blue light and whiskey mood it puts me in.