Red Mosquito

people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some children are not comfortable around other naked people, particularly of a different sex. They deserve respect too.

FTFY

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some naked people are not comfortable around other naked people, particularly of a different sex. They deserve respect too.

I don't believe in burdening others with my hangups.

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some children are not comfortable around other naked people, particularly of a different sex. They deserve respect too.

FTFY

This is a learned hangup. Do you think they have this problem in African tribes where everyone is naked all the time?

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

people who aren't comfortable around naked people (yes they exist and that's fine) can simply go home and be naked in their own private environment (safety, comfort) instead of insisting and legislating that one group of people should not be allowed to be naked in public places where that happens (segregation, fascism)

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some naked people are not comfortable around other naked people. They deserve respect too.

This is a good point. Individual shower and changing spaces is the most effective way to protect kids from discomfort in gym class.

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

here is what I'm hearing whenever you talk on this subject, Tree

"I hear that you had a painful life but I'm still an insecure parent and I need to be personally comfortable when it comes to respecting my kids"

to be blunt, by holding this at arms' length, you are creating an environment in which your kids wouldn't feel safe to tell you they were trans even if they were, because they'd become aware that you were picking and choosing what parts of being human they are allowed to partake in according to your own comfort

also, the fact that you are "impressed" that I had "such a strong identity at a young age" means that you're not trusting children to know enough

stop treating me like an exception to some rule just because I made it out alive (just)

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

here is what I'm hearing whenever you talk on this subject, Tree

"I hear that you had a painful life but I'm still an insecure parent and I need to be personally comfortable when it comes to respecting my kids"

to be blunt, by holding this at arms' length, you are creating an environment in which your kids wouldn't feel safe to tell you they were trans even if they were, because they'd become aware that you were picking and choosing what parts of being human they are allowed to partake in according to your own comfort

It has nothing to do with like, personal icky feelings about trans people, which I don’t have. I simply want to make the wisest decisions for my children. It should take a lot of growth, education, development to reach a point in one’s life where they can make important, consequential choices for oneself, is my stance. If there were some kind of technology by which my kid knew he needed to transition and it could easily be confirmed it’s the best thing to do,, I’d not hesitate to approve.

JuanHamm wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some children are not comfortable around other naked people, particularly of a different sex. They deserve respect too.

FTFY

This is a learned hangup. Do you think they have this problem in African tribes where everyone is naked all the time?

Seems so obvious when you put it this way.

McParadigm wrote:

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some naked people are not comfortable around other naked people. They deserve respect too.

This is a good point. Individual shower and changing spaces is the most effective way to protect kids from discomfort in gym class.

This is the solution yes, gotta recognize that EE said something similar last page as well, but there is a lot of time and space between today and this, and there needs to be a balance between providing safe spaces for all kids (trans included!)

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

here is what I'm hearing whenever you talk on this subject, Tree

"I hear that you had a painful life but I'm still an insecure parent and I need to be personally comfortable when it comes to respecting my kids"

to be blunt, by holding this at arms' length, you are creating an environment in which your kids wouldn't feel safe to tell you they were trans even if they were, because they'd become aware that you were picking and choosing what parts of being human they are allowed to partake in according to your own comfort

It has nothing to do with like, personal icky feelings about trans people, which I don’t have. I simply want to make the wisest decisions for my children. It should take a lot of growth, education, development to reach a point in one’s life where they can make important, consequential choices for oneself, is my stance. If there were some kind of technology by which my kid knew he needed to transition and it could easily be confirmed it’s the best thing to do,, I’d not hesitate to approve.

"if... then I would not hesitate to improve"

it's all about your feelings

Bi_3 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

tree_ wrote:Tommy I think you should consider some naked people are not comfortable around other naked people. They deserve respect too.

This is a good point. Individual shower and changing spaces is the most effective way to protect kids from discomfort in gym class.

This is the solution yes, gotta recognize that EE said something similar last page as well, but there is a lot of time and space between today and this, and there needs to be a balance between providing safe spaces for all kids (trans included!)

there is no "temporary balance" that makes everyone safe

we need to push for the logical and safe conclusion (including thinking about how to better spend money as institutions) until everyone is safe

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

here is what I'm hearing whenever you talk on this subject, Tree

"I hear that you had a painful life but I'm still an insecure parent and I need to be personally comfortable when it comes to respecting my kids"

to be blunt, by holding this at arms' length, you are creating an environment in which your kids wouldn't feel safe to tell you they were trans even if they were, because they'd become aware that you were picking and choosing what parts of being human they are allowed to partake in according to your own comfort

It has nothing to do with like, personal icky feelings about trans people, which I don’t have. I simply want to make the wisest decisions for my children. It should take a lot of growth, education, development to reach a point in one’s life where they can make important, consequential choices for oneself, is my stance. If there were some kind of technology by which my kid knew he needed to transition and it could easily be confirmed it’s the best thing to do,, I’d not hesitate to approve.

"if... then I would not hesitate to improve"

it's all about your feelings

It’s about my feelings toward doing the right thing, based on the best information available. If you gave me some kind of study that showed it’s safer to listen to your childrens wishes on this subject at a young age, rather than just take a “better safe than sorry”, wait and see approach, I’d be swayed.

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:people who want to talk about an "age limit" on the right for trans people to exist and partake in public life (including being able to pee in a safe, gender-appropriate place) are constantly and conveniently glossing over this: I was 6 years old when I knew

having adults conveniently dismiss my feelings as "kids stuff" did not create a cis person, it created a traumatised, thoroughly unhappy trans person

we're not wanting to "force kids to be trans"

we're wanting to give them the opportunity to NOT be forced to tick "cis" when they know they are not

and no, kids don't have to understand the terms to know what they feel like

the thing "staunch supporters" are doing is not simply letting kids be kids, but letting kids be happier kids that turn into more fulfilled adults, and positioning that over the insecurities of adults who think trans people are weird

I’m sorry for you that you had to experience that, and am impressed you had such a strong identity at such a young age. I do see your experience as anecdotal, however, when considering choices I may have to make for my children. Many people don’t know who they really are their entire lives, let alone as children. I just think if you’re trying to protect a child from his/herself, you can only make the safest bets and hope for the best. I just want to know what that entails and why.

here is what I'm hearing whenever you talk on this subject, Tree

"I hear that you had a painful life but I'm still an insecure parent and I need to be personally comfortable when it comes to respecting my kids"

to be blunt, by holding this at arms' length, you are creating an environment in which your kids wouldn't feel safe to tell you they were trans even if they were, because they'd become aware that you were picking and choosing what parts of being human they are allowed to partake in according to your own comfort

It has nothing to do with like, personal icky feelings about trans people, which I don’t have. I simply want to make the wisest decisions for my children. It should take a lot of growth, education, development to reach a point in one’s life where they can make important, consequential choices for oneself, is my stance. If there were some kind of technology by which my kid knew he needed to transition and it could easily be confirmed it’s the best thing to do,, I’d not hesitate to approve.

"if... then I would not hesitate to improve"

it's all about your feelings

It’s about my feelings toward doing the right thing, based on the best information available. If you gave me some kind of study that showed it’s safer to listen to your childrens wishes on this subject at a young age, rather than just take a “better safe than sorry”, wait and see approach, I’d be swayed.

you need to know all the information to make steps towards making YOU happy, but you couldn't make steps to make your kids happy if any of it was a mystery to you

that's a shame

where are you allowing for your kids' autonomy to teach YOU? where are you positioning YOURSELF as student, in your parenting?

I guarantee you what my kids think will make them happy very often is incorrect. It is a parents job to be wise in ways that children cannot be.

trans people have addressed "trans regret" over and over again

1% regret rate, compared to much higher in other situations

tree_ wrote:I guarantee you what my kids think will make them happy very often is incorrect. It is a parents job to be wise in ways that children cannot be.

Conservative parenting 101