Red Mosquito

digster wrote:So, in short (I know, too late) would I say that the existence of boards like this one have had absolutely no impact on how albums are received? No, I wouldn’t say that . Do I think it really changes how the albums are perceived in the broader perspective of a band’s discography? No, not really. To put it another way, if Vitalogy and Backspacer switched places in the band’s chronology, would their stature in the fan community (or lack thereof) really be any different? I’d say not.

Nail, head.

digster wrote:

stip wrote:that's true. people are never influenced by the things that they read.

I have to day, don’t really know if anyone was saying this. I certainly wasn't meaning to.

But you’re right. People are influenced by what they read, what they hear, what they feel themselves, the manner in which they receive new music, etc. I do think we’re talking about different things here. I wouldn't say that people can’t be influenced by smart commentary they read on a message board (the SOTM threads have changed my mind on quite a few songs). However, I think a straight up majority opinion on a Pearl Jam message board alone is unlikely to change many minds on a particular song.

If message boards meant there was no possibility of an album’s massive acclaim, there’d be no such thing as a masterpiece album, accepted as a great work of art, in at least the last 10-15 years. Arcade Fire alone have had at least two in that time. It still happens; maybe not often, but it absolutely does.

So, in short (I know, too late) would I say that the existence of boards like this one have had absolutely no impact on how albums are received? No, I wouldn’t say that . Do I think it really changes how the albums are perceived in the broader perspective of a band’s discography? No, not really. To put it another way, if Vitalogy and Backspacer switched places in the band’s chronology, would their stature in the fan community (or lack thereof) really be any different? I’d say not.

Doesn't it all come down to the fact that EVs vocals aren't what they once were? I mean, we can analyze all we want, and he sounds pretty good on the current stuff, but the magic of the band (for me) was always his ability to make ordinary songs sound like something more. He simply can't do that anymore so the ordinary songs sound ordinary. The great songs will still sound great but it's hard as shit to come up with a great song.

I think Swallowed Whole is pretty great. I love the parts where everyone come in strong, Ed sounds great there.

I think there's something to be said about the fact that the later you get into a band's career, the more likely you are to find people willing to stick around and dissect an album/song that they don't like because they've kind of passed a "Point of no return." Certainly there were people who were disappointed by Vs., Vitalogy, No Code, and Yield. But (and especially with Vs. and Vitalogy), it was a lot easier to just hop off of the metaphorical train when it's that early in a band's career and be done with it. Ten, fifteen years down the road it gets a bit harder. Most of us probably still love enough of Pearl Jam's output that it is entirely unrealistic to think they'll even put out enough "bad" material to outweigh what we believe to be the "good" material. There's an inclination to want to view the bigger picture of the band's catalog and take the time to really think about why something they've doesn't resonate with or engage you.

I consider Vitalogy to be a legitimate masterpiece, and probably one of my five favorite albums of all-time. I also remember that a lot of people were really put off by it. I would bet more copies of Vitalogy were bought by people who then "gave up" on the band than copies of Backspacer were. It's kind of like the idea of history being written by the victors. By the early 00's, the Pearl Jam legacy was being defined by the people who adored the middle period records because they were the only people who had any interest in the Pearl Jam legacy. I think this is also part of what irritates some fans about things like the PJ20 movie or Pearl Jam's full speed sprint into the "living legends" circle over the past seven or so years. It's like you stuck with your significant other through what the rest of the world thought was an awkward "OH MY GOD SHE'S WEARING GLASSES AND OVERALLS GROSS!" phase because you realized she was actually amazing and beautiful, only for her to decide once people started saying "hey, there's a pretty special girl underneath all of that who we used to be into" that and for her to throw away all of the things that made her so special to play up all of the superficial qualities that you thought she outgrew over a decade ago. And now that all of those people have come back around and have interest again, you have to sit through accusations of shit like "You only like No Code cause you're a hipster" or "If Backspacer and Yield switched places you hate Yield and love Backspacer." It's insane.

Ah, fuck. None of this probably makes any sense.

It'll be pretty cool if this new album is really good.

Lament wrote:I think there's something to be said about the fact that the later you get into a band's career, the more likely you are to find people willing to stick around and dissect an album/song that they don't like because they've kind of passed a "Point of no return." Certainly there were people who were disappointed by Vs., Vitalogy, No Code, and Yield. But (and especially with Vs. and Vitalogy), it was a lot easier to just hop off of the metaphorical train when it's that early in a band's career and be done with it. Ten, fifteen years down the road it gets a bit harder. Most of us probably still love enough of Pearl Jam's output that it is entirely unrealistic to think they'll even put out enough "bad" material to outweigh what we believe to be the "good" material. There's an inclination to want to view the bigger picture of the band's catalog and take the time to really think about why something they've doesn't resonate with or engage you.

I consider Vitalogy to be a legitimate masterpiece, and probably one of my five favorite albums of all-time. I also remember that a lot of people were really put off by it. I would bet more copies of Vitalogy were bought by people who then "gave up" on the band than copies of Backspacer were. It's kind of like the idea of history being written by the victors. By the early 00's, the Pearl Jam legacy was being defined by the people who adored the middle period records because they were the only people who had any interest in the Pearl Jam legacy. I think this is also part of what irritates some fans about things like the PJ20 movie or Pearl Jam's full speed sprint into the "living legends" circle over the past seven or so years. It's like you stuck with your significant other through what the rest of the world thought was an awkward "OH MY GOD SHE'S WEARING GLASSES AND OVERALLS GROSS!" phase because you realized she was actually amazing and beautiful, only for her to decide once people started saying "hey, there's a pretty special girl underneath all of that who we used to be into" that and for her to throw away all of the things that made her so special to play up all of the superficial qualities that you thought she outgrew over a decade ago. And now that all of those people have come back around and have interest again, you have to sit through accusations of shit like "You only like No Code cause you're a hipster" or "If Backspacer and Yield switched places you hate Yield and love Backspacer." It's insane.

Ah, fuck. None of this probably makes any sense.

It'll be pretty cool if this new album is really good.

nail, head.


No, not really you lost me somewhere around overalls

Lament wrote:I think there's something to be said about the fact that the later you get into a band's career, the more likely you are to find people willing to stick around and dissect an album/song that they don't like because they've kind of passed a "Point of no return." Certainly there were people who were disappointed by Vs., Vitalogy, No Code, and Yield. But (and especially with Vs. and Vitalogy), it was a lot easier to just hop off of the metaphorical train when it's that early in a band's career and be done with it. Ten, fifteen years down the road it gets a bit harder. Most of us probably still love enough of Pearl Jam's output that it is entirely unrealistic to think they'll even put out enough "bad" material to outweigh what we believe to be the "good" material. There's an inclination to want to view the bigger picture of the band's catalog and take the time to really think about why something they've doesn't resonate with or engage you.

I consider Vitalogy to be a legitimate masterpiece, and probably one of my five favorite albums of all-time. I also remember that a lot of people were really put off by it. I would bet more copies of Vitalogy were bought by people who then "gave up" on the band than copies of Backspacer were. It's kind of like the idea of history being written by the victors. By the early 00's, the Pearl Jam legacy was being defined by the people who adored the middle period records because they were the only people who had any interest in the Pearl Jam legacy. I think this is also part of what irritates some fans about things like the PJ20 movie or Pearl Jam's full speed sprint into the "living legends" circle over the past seven or so years. It's like you stuck with your significant other through what the rest of the world thought was an awkward "OH MY GOD SHE'S WEARING GLASSES AND OVERALLS GROSS!" phase because you realized she was actually amazing and beautiful, only for her to decide once people started saying "hey, there's a pretty special girl underneath all of that who we used to be into" that and for her to throw away all of the things that made her so special to play up all of the superficial qualities that you thought she outgrew over a decade ago. And now that all of those people have come back around and have interest again, you have to sit through accusations of shit like "You only like No Code cause you're a hipster" or "If Backspacer and Yield switched places you hate Yield and love Backspacer." It's insane.

Ah, fuck. None of this probably makes any sense.

It'll be pretty cool if this new album is really good.

THIS FUCKING GUY

Noaheb wrote:No, not really you lost me somewhere around overalls

That means it made sense to you longer than it did to me.

That Q review was really positive.

Lament wrote:

Noaheb wrote:No, not really you lost me somewhere around overalls

That means it made sense to you longer than it did to me.

lol

Lament wrote:I consider Vitalogy to be a legitimate masterpiece, and probably one of my five favorite albums of all-time. I also remember that a lot of people were really put off by it. I would bet more copies of Vitalogy were bought by people who then "gave up" on the band than copies of Backspacer were.

The first critical analysis I ever heard of Pearl Jam was from a 17 year-old Nine Inch Nails fan named Josh, in the summer of 1995, when I was 12. I was visiting my childhood best friend in Wyoming for a week (he had moved away the summer before), and also staying with them were some friends of the family who had this 17 year-old son, whom I remember had an uncharacteristically foul mouth and wore the same "Downward Spiral" shirt every day for the whole week. So one night MTV was on and he started asking what kind of music we listened to. I had literally just discovered Pearl Jam about two months prior, and had managed to nickel-and-dime my parents enough to accumulate all three of their albums on cassette, working backwards; at that point, they were literally the only band I was listening to. So, eager to impress, I piped up and proclaimed my love for my precious. Bad move--my enthusiasm was quickly dismissed by the older kid as naivete, and he proceeded to launch into his tirade: "Pearl Jam really fucking bugs me. It's like, first they decide that they want all this fame, then they decide that they're sick of it, and so they make this album that really fucking sucks called 'Vitalogy' that has all this weird shit on it just so no one will like them anymore. Fuck that album, man." The kid approved my ownership of "Ten" and "Vs." but surmised that my copy of "Vitalogy" might be better traded in for a copy of a record called "Short Bus" by a band called Filter.

"Vitalogy" was, of course, the album that made a fan out of me, so why someone would dismiss it as sucking in comparison to their other two records was baffling to me. But, until "No Code" came out, there was a kind of conventional wisdom (among people in my general age range, of course, which counts for squat) that "Vitalogy" was a step down of sorts. It's been pretty much that same conventional wisdom with every record since, until they really did start making "steps down," and then those started getting praised as returns to form.

For years I felt like I was the only person who understood anything at all about this band.

Kevin Davis wrote: But, until "No Code" came out, there was a kind of conventional wisdom... that "Vitalogy" was a step down of sorts.

True.

Kevin Davis wrote:"Vitalogy" was, of course, the album that made a fan out of me, so why someone would dismiss it as sucking in comparison to their other two records was baffling to me. But, until "No Code" came out, there was a kind of conventional wisdom (among people in my general age range, of course, which counts for squat) that "Vitalogy" was a step down of sorts. It's been pretty much that same conventional wisdom with every record since, until they really did start making "steps down," and then those started getting praised as returns to form.

Exactly. I find that 99% of the posts about Pearl Jam on general music forums are along the lines of "they lost me after Vitalogy" and "the first two albums were good, every album after that has one or two good songs on it and that's it". And a lot of these same people were "impressed" by Avocado and/or Backspacer. It's like they totally missed the boat. I've always been baffled by that. It's like saying you gave up on The Beatles after "Help".

Lament wrote:I think there's something to be said about the fact that the later you get into a band's career, the more likely you are to find people willing to stick around and dissect an album/song that they don't like because they've kind of passed a "Point of no return." Certainly there were people who were disappointed by Vs., Vitalogy, No Code, and Yield. But (and especially with Vs. and Vitalogy), it was a lot easier to just hop off of the metaphorical train when it's that early in a band's career and be done with it. Ten, fifteen years down the road it gets a bit harder. Most of us probably still love enough of Pearl Jam's output that it is entirely unrealistic to think they'll even put out enough "bad" material to outweigh what we believe to be the "good" material. There's an inclination to want to view the bigger picture of the band's catalog and take the time to really think about why something they've doesn't resonate with or engage you.

I consider Vitalogy to be a legitimate masterpiece, and probably one of my five favorite albums of all-time. I also remember that a lot of people were really put off by it. I would bet more copies of Vitalogy were bought by people who then "gave up" on the band than copies of Backspacer were. It's kind of like the idea of history being written by the victors. By the early 00's, the Pearl Jam legacy was being defined by the people who adored the middle period records because they were the only people who had any interest in the Pearl Jam legacy. I think this is also part of what irritates some fans about things like the PJ20 movie or Pearl Jam's full speed sprint into the "living legends" circle over the past seven or so years. It's like you stuck with your significant other through what the rest of the world thought was an awkward "OH MY GOD SHE'S WEARING GLASSES AND OVERALLS GROSS!" phase because you realized she was actually amazing and beautiful, only for her to decide once people started saying "hey, there's a pretty special girl underneath all of that who we used to be into" that and for her to throw away all of the things that made her so special to play up all of the superficial qualities that you thought she outgrew over a decade ago. And now that all of those people have come back around and have interest again, you have to sit through accusations of shit like "You only like No Code cause you're a hipster" or "If Backspacer and Yield switched places you hate Yield and love Backspacer." It's insane.

Ah, fuck. None of this probably makes any sense.

It'll be pretty cool if this new album is really good.

For all that I like the new music, you have just eloquently described why I'm finding it all a bitter-sweet pill to swallow. There are other things, too, pertaining to the attitude of the band, and Ed only throwing a bone to the social issues of Mind Your Manners. Granted, we haven't got the rest of the new songs yet, but I'm really hoping some more social commentary and resistance shows up, not just for me but for others who are pissed off that Ed needs to broadcast to the world his cosy contentment in Sirens. I really don't think that's *all* Sirens is, and it's the context this love story is set against that keeps me coming back to it, but yeah... I can't escape the feeling that this isn't the same Pearl Jam I've come to know and love through the (at one time difficult to process) middle period. But I did come to love it, and Pearl Jam became a different band again than the one I'd grown up with. The one thing that remained the same was the political / social justice thread. I think, ultimately, although I don't need Pearl Jam to be angsty and angry (another strawman hurled at anyone unhappy with them lately), I do need them to engage with a world beyond the beautiful, big-wavy world of Eddie Vedder.

Kevin Davis wrote:For years I felt like I was the only person who understood anything at all about this band.

Again, great post Kevin Davis but I've highlighted this bit because it also sums up another feeling I have. I enjoy listening to this band still but I'm not sure if I know them anymore. And, as Lament said, I'm not sure I understand the sudden fast sprint into the grand pantheon of all-American rock bands, because, well, that's not what they were trying for all this time, was it? It's not what the media thought they were either, so why now? That's absolutely antithetical to what this band was doing in the middle period. Does this band *regret* the middle period? If I thought they did, it would sour me on the new record pretty hard. It's about time I was honest about that. I've been doing a lot of fanboi-ing lately.

Harmless, it will all be okay. It really will I promise.

Keep in mind Getaway and Lightning Bolt. This band will always have something to say to the world. Ed will also always write songs about his inner demons and always will. So don't worry.

It's not so much inner demons; it's more the outward focus, the social action, the engagement with problems of the world beyond Ed. I can cope with songs like "Sirens", just like I could cope with songs like Elderly Woman or Lowlight ("clouds roll by...") before, as long as they're not prioritised over the songs like MYM. How good MYM is musically isn't really the point; I just want this band socially engaged, and anyone (like Malice) who is questioning whether they still are at the moment has a very good point.

I guess what I'm saying is maybe I'm starting to sympathise a bit with IlluminEddie's laborious point: "Why isn't Eddie shouting at Obama?" I don't feel the need for exactly that myself, and never did, but I think his question has a nugget of a yearning in it for more than this "Eddie Vedder, the last man standing of grunge, entrant into the rock-n-roll Hall of Fame" shtick.

Lament wrote:you have to sit through accusations of shit like "You only like No Code cause you're a hipster" or "If Backspacer and Yield switched places you hate Yield and love Backspacer." It's insane.

Are people really saying this?

Luckily it's not the people I know and run into during the shows, at least the European part of it. Most of them have been there from the beginning. And if there are complaints it's more about the last few albums, but they all still show up for the shows.

I get all of that. Remember There is also Getaway, and if you think like me that the song Lightning Bolt is mother natured themed. That is 25 percent of the whole. MYM is pretty heavy handed in a good way. I also think Ed is older and wiser in a way 15 years ago he would have been pissed about what is going on in the world, and now he is just really hurt.