Red Mosquito

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:being trans is not a luxury you give to people, it's something they are whether you like it or not, and whatever you do / don't do about it

I’m not sure it’s so clear in every case. But you are giving me things to think about.

I am sure

What is your conviction based upon?

did you really ask ms harmless what she is basing her opinion on being trans from?

Peeps wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:being trans is not a luxury you give to people, it's something they are whether you like it or not, and whatever you do / don't do about it

I’m not sure it’s so clear in every case. But you are giving me things to think about.

I am sure

What is your conviction based upon?

did you really ask ms harmless what she is basing her opinion on being trans from?

Nope. I asked what her convictions that virtually all people, particularly children, are as genuine and clear headed as she is, are based upon.

My baseline perspective is most people, particularly children, of all types are confused and/or full of shit.

Yeah kids suck

I love that all the stats are the Dutch did this one study this one time and no one ever replicated it, and the Dutch have since disavowed it as underpowered but it's still the pre-eminent basis for this entire field.

Trust the Science? Trust the sociology survey science or the negligible long term endocrinology science or ...?

We’ve heard all these arguments before. About gay people. ‘They’re all paedophiles!’ About black people. ‘Theyre rapists and will kill aloud women!’ About if gay people marry, etc etc on and on. It was bulls but all those times and it’s bullshit now.

Invented moral panics. And again happening now targeting trans people.
All coming from christofascist far right elements and now infecting the mainstream.

Peoples very existence isn’t up for debate. Trans people have existed as long as there’s been people. They’ve always been there. Evil needs a target. Every time. Trans people were among the first targets of the Nazis and rounded up along with lgb people. And here we are again.

Nobody is forcing any ideology on anyone. It’s a manufactured nonsense and now it’s turned dangerous.

If you want to learn about trans people, talk to trans people. Listen to their stories.
Nobody wakes up randomly one day and decides to be trans (or gay or any of it) nobody decides they’re going to make their lives infinitely more difficult and paint a target on their back like this. Nobody.

Do some reading and even reach out to a trans person and ask them about their daily experience being trans. Least that way you can have an informed view rather than an ignorant one.

love ya, Dime

tree_ wrote:

Peeps wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:being trans is not a luxury you give to people, it's something they are whether you like it or not, and whatever you do / don't do about it

I’m not sure it’s so clear in every case. But you are giving me things to think about.

I am sure

What is your conviction based upon?

did you really ask ms harmless what she is basing her opinion on being trans from?

Nope. I asked what her convictions that virtually all people, particularly children, are as genuine and clear headed as she is, are based upon.

My baseline perspective is most people, particularly children, of all types are confused and/or full of shit.

I knew my gender at 6, and children are perfectly capable of knowing what gender they are (and aren't); that's what I said, but you took out all context from it and interpreted it as "children are as mature as adults in all areas of life"

"I am a boy" / "I'm not a boy"
"I am a girl" / "I'm not a girl"
"I don't feel like a boy or a girl"

this is all we're listening out for, it's very very simple

the response? "you can be anything you want my love, and if you don't feel happy you can change your mind"

I couldn’t change my mind at 6; I had to wait until I was in a situation were other adults weren't making my mind up for me; I'm asking for a closer level of listening to our kids, for this generation

Again my only real concern is children physically changing their sex at a young age and I’m just trying to figure out how do you tell when it’s the right time. I mean no ill will towards trans people whatsoever. Just distrust of children.

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Peeps wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:being trans is not a luxury you give to people, it's something they are whether you like it or not, and whatever you do / don't do about it

I’m not sure it’s so clear in every case. But you are giving me things to think about.

I am sure

What is your conviction based upon?

did you really ask ms harmless what she is basing her opinion on being trans from?

Nope. I asked what her convictions that virtually all people, particularly children, are as genuine and clear headed as she is, are based upon.

My baseline perspective is most people, particularly children, of all types are confused and/or full of shit.

I knew my gender at 6, and children are perfectly capable of knowing what gender they are (and aren't); that's what I said, but you took out all context from it and interpreted it as "children are as mature as adults in all areas of life"

"I am a boy" / "I'm not a boy"
"I am a girl" / "I'm not a girl"
"I don't feel like a boy or a girl"

this is all we're listening out for, it's very very simple

the response? "you can be anything you want my love, and if you don't feel happy you can change your mind"

I couldn’t change my mind at 6; I had to wait until I was in a situation were other adults weren't making my mind up for me; I'm asking for a closer level of listening to our kids, for this generation

Without questioning your lived experience, because as far as I can tell no here is doing that or has done that, we believe you and support the choice you've made and the freedom for others to take the steps they need to feel whole... I think you are underestimating this ask. What you are stating above, again while was unarguably the case for you as an individual, goes against 100+ years of study in the physical, psychological, and social development of human children as well as 1000s of years of understanding across nearly every culture on earth about the roles of the parents in their child's life, today culminating in medical treatment that induces permanent and life-altering changes in that child's body, followed by a lifetime of dependency on pharmaceutical interventions... and all this is done before they are finished physically and mentally maturing... and without any way of knowing if this the right thing other than what the child says at that moment. Combine that with studies that have shown 60-80% desistance rates for Gender Dysphoria in youth (when left unaffirmed) and it's a big ask of parents to affirm first.

tree_ wrote:Again my only real concern is children physically changing their sex at a young age and I’m just trying to figure out how do you tell when it’s the right time. I mean no ill will towards trans people whatsoever. Just distrust of children.

for the thousandth time, that is not happening; mid-late teens is a conversation we're all having, and regardless of any outcomes, young children are not physically altering their bodies

Bi_3 wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Peeps wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:being trans is not a luxury you give to people, it's something they are whether you like it or not, and whatever you do / don't do about it

I’m not sure it’s so clear in every case. But you are giving me things to think about.

I am sure

What is your conviction based upon?

did you really ask ms harmless what she is basing her opinion on being trans from?

Nope. I asked what her convictions that virtually all people, particularly children, are as genuine and clear headed as she is, are based upon.

My baseline perspective is most people, particularly children, of all types are confused and/or full of shit.

I knew my gender at 6, and children are perfectly capable of knowing what gender they are (and aren't); that's what I said, but you took out all context from it and interpreted it as "children are as mature as adults in all areas of life"

"I am a boy" / "I'm not a boy"
"I am a girl" / "I'm not a girl"
"I don't feel like a boy or a girl"

this is all we're listening out for, it's very very simple

the response? "you can be anything you want my love, and if you don't feel happy you can change your mind"

I couldn’t change my mind at 6; I had to wait until I was in a situation were other adults weren't making my mind up for me; I'm asking for a closer level of listening to our kids, for this generation

Without questioning your lived experience, because as far as I can tell no here is doing that or has done that, we believe you and support the choice you've made and the freedom for others to take the steps they need to feel whole... I think you are underestimating this ask. What you are stating above, again while was unarguably the case for you as an individual, goes against 100+ years of study in the physical, psychological, and social development of human children as well as 1000s of years of understanding across nearly every culture on earth about the roles of the parents in their child's life, today culminating in medical treatment that induces permanent and life-altering changes in that child's body, followed by a lifetime of dependency on pharmaceutical interventions... and all this is done before they are finished physically and mentally maturing... and without any way of knowing if this the right thing other than what the child says at that moment. Combine that with studies that have shown 60-80% desistance rates for Gender Dysphoria in youth (when left unaffirmed) and it's a big ask of parents to affirm first.

what you just typed is pure, unadulterated, misinformed, inexperienced bullshit

"kids are stupid and must have their path carved out by adults and thousands, THOUSANDS of years of blah blah blah"

60-80% of desistance rates is a statistic I've never come across before in my almost-decade of being an out trans activist

there are trans-antagonists out there lying with their stories and statistics and trans people debunking them constantly

if people become closeted again when they are unaffirmed, that is a sad, sad thing that we should be working to fix by affirming them; it's not something to be encouraged because it makes adults more comfortable

I didn't "desist" being trans just because the rest of my circle laughed it off, I simply became very unhappy and unheard

and I am NOT an exception to a rule that you and your "concern" has made up in your head

you can't accuse me of subjective anecdotes, then repeatedly present your purely hypothetical "concerns"

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:Again my only real concern is children physically changing their sex at a young age and I’m just trying to figure out how do you tell when it’s the right time. I mean no ill will towards trans people whatsoever. Just distrust of children.

for the thousandth time, that is not happening; mid-late teens is a conversation we're all having, and regardless of any outcomes, young children are not physically altering their bodies

This is the first time this was mentioned, at least recently, I believe without reading through all the thread. Mike posted about supporting trans kids, not trans teens, which is what set luNY off to begin with.

dimejinky99 wrote:
Peoples very existence isn’t up for debate.

My favorite bit of hysterical nonsense.

Bi_3 wrote:

knee tunes wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:trans people have addressed "trans regret" over and over again

1% regret rate, compared to much higher in other situations

OK, but at what age did they transition, the people in this study? I’m only concerned for children because they tend to be unwise.

14.5 average age . I just read the study in pubmed

Link?


This one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35452119/

suggest desistance between 19-30%

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33968550/

This says that of the 27 studies done involving 7,928 patients who had gender affirming SURGERIES, the regret rate was less than 1%. The study you linked involves the continuation of hormone treatment

Ms Harmless wrote:I'm not trying to "resolve" anything in here

Cool, cool

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:Again my only real concern is children physically changing their sex at a young age and I’m just trying to figure out how do you tell when it’s the right time. I mean no ill will towards trans people whatsoever. Just distrust of children.

for the thousandth time, that is not happening; mid-late teens is a conversation we're all having, and regardless of any outcomes, young children are not physically altering their bodies

This is the first time this was mentioned, at least recently, I believe without reading through all the thread. Mike posted about supporting trans kids, not trans teens, which is what set luNY off to begin with.

being transgender and medically / surgically transitioning are two different things; trans people should have access to the latter if they need it but it doesn't "make" them trans

you and I have been in this thread for a long time and I have repeatedly said that kids aren't medically transitioning; I don't know what "recently" means but my feeling is that if we're all debating this as adults, I should have only had to say it once

BurtReynolds wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:
Peoples very existence isn’t up for debate.

My favorite bit of hysterical nonsense.

and yet, nobody is debating yours