Red Mosquito

And for the (very important) record:

Getaway
Swallowed Whole
Sirens
Mind Your Manners
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

evenslow wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:love:
still waiting...

like:
Getaway
MYM

bleh:
Swallowed Whole

hate:
Sirens
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

You probably just need to listen to every single song on here over and over until you get it.

Sirens has actually aged worse for me (it was a 'bleh'). I don't hear how its a grower.

Don't say that out loud! Stip will freak out!

Awwwwww, what a sweet little support group. It's okay guys, you'll still be talking about things you don't like together on a message board tomorrow.

evenslow used sarcasm

it's not very effective...

theplatypus wrote:

evenslow wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:love:
still waiting...

like:
Getaway
MYM

bleh:
Swallowed Whole

hate:
Sirens
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

You probably just need to listen to every single song on here over and over until you get it.

Sirens has actually aged worse for me (it was a 'bleh'). I don't hear how its a grower.

Don't say that out loud! Stip will freak out!

Awwwwww, what a sweet little support group. It's okay guys, you'll still be talking about things you don't like together on a message board tomorrow.

evenslow used sarcasm

it's not very effective...

It's clearly tearing you apart.

digster wrote:Some people like the whole discography, others like only parts. I guess it seems like more typically people prefer eras, for lack of a better term, or strings of albums. That makes sense; most artists in other mediums tend to work in a similar fashion. They hit their stride at a certain point in their career, whenever it is, and make the best and most consistent work of their career in one swoop, which may last months or decades.

I actually think it can be fun and interesting to kind of deal with albums you don't like by bands you do (or used to like); it's art like anything else, and addressing it's flaws is a part of being a critic, for lack of a better term. I don't really see the need to 'get off the train' if you haven't liked the band's last few works. If Scorsese made a few stinkers in a row, it wouldn't seem weird to me that people would still see, critique, and even pan the next flick he made. It's the same thing with music.

I do like your Scorsese analogy. It definitely puts things into perspective. Reading a lot of what I've read on this board, I sometimes wonder why half the people here still even follow the band if they have just completely disliked everything the band has done in the past 10 years. But if this band has had any emotional impact on your life (safe to say everyone here can say it has in a big way), it's impossible to let go of something that important, unless they did something that was just so against our moral base, we couldn't forgive it.

But you (and others) have hit on the theory that the albums can be grouped into three different eras. I personally see four eras when I look at the band:

first:
Ten
Vs.
Vitalogy

second:
No Code
Yield
Binaural

third:
Riot Act
S/T

fourth:
Backspacer
Lightning Bolt

I feel like this is mainly based on album themes and where the band's mindset was at when the album was made. In the first era, there's a lot of personal strife that goes largely unresolved, and if there is a resolution, it's temporary and fleeting. The band itself was a mess during this time, and struggling to grasp their fame and making peace with it.

In the second era, they really start to explore possibilities and become very introspective. This came at a time when the band had become very democratic and had everyone really pitching in with ideas. I feel like Yield really was the pinnacle of that relationship between the band members, yet Binaural may have suffered from too much of it. Too many different ideas coming from different band members to where it seems disjointed.

In the third era, Riot Act and S/T almost serve as a two-part series. Riot Act came at a post-9/11 time when the Band was fed up with the Bush administration and were feeling rather hopeless. They also are returning to the studio for the first time since the Roskilde tragedy. This is a thematically depressing album (I feel moreso than any of the others) and is very bleak, with no positive outcome in sight. S/T answers it with a confident, definitive protest. They're mad as hell, and they're not gonna take it anymore. Most people here probably would not group these albums together, and I will admit that they are very different, but I feel like they S/T served as a response to questions raised in Riot Act.

In the fourth era, the band no longer has a specific source of angst or anything to protest. They were pleased with the outcome of the 2008 election and had very little to rally against politically. I feel like Backspacer is a return to their mindset of the second era, and they are continuing with an exploration of themselves. They are now older, and thus their style has changed. They are positive, hence their music has more shine to it. I feel like Lightning Bolt is carrying that torch further, and now digging into a deeper and darker place (from what I've heard).

This concept of "eras" for a band or artist is something that interests me. The first and third eras I laid out suggest they were writing about some larger and very specific issues that required some urgency to be addressed, resulting in darker-themed albums. The second and fourth eras are during times when the band was mostly content with where they were at, both as individuals and as a band, resulting in more experimental and positive albums.

This then starts a discussion as to whether a band performs better when in distress or when they are free to explore other places. Will the Backspacer (and likely Lightning Bolt) haters be appeased when the band is once again pushed back into a darker place when the sociopolitical landscape inevitably changes again for the worse?

I guess what I love about this band is that there is absolutely no way of knowing where they'll go next. Their albums are obviously a reaction to what is going on in their lives at the moment. So far, Lightning Bolt is going into unexpected places, which I personally find exciting.

LemonyLlama wrote:

digster wrote:Some people like the whole discography, others like only parts. I guess it seems like more typically people prefer eras, for lack of a better term, or strings of albums. That makes sense; most artists in other mediums tend to work in a similar fashion. They hit their stride at a certain point in their career, whenever it is, and make the best and most consistent work of their career in one swoop, which may last months or decades.

I actually think it can be fun and interesting to kind of deal with albums you don't like by bands you do (or used to like); it's art like anything else, and addressing it's flaws is a part of being a critic, for lack of a better term. I don't really see the need to 'get off the train' if you haven't liked the band's last few works. If Scorsese made a few stinkers in a row, it wouldn't seem weird to me that people would still see, critique, and even pan the next flick he made. It's the same thing with music.

I do like your Scorsese analogy. It definitely puts things into perspective. Reading a lot of what I've read on this board, I sometimes wonder why half the people here still even follow the band if they have just completely disliked everything the band has done in the past 10 years. But if this band has had any emotional impact on your life (safe to say everyone here can say it has in a big way), it's impossible to let go of something that important, unless they did something that was just so against our moral base, we couldn't forgive it.

But you (and others) have hit on the theory that the albums can be grouped into three different eras. I personally see four eras when I look at the band:

first:
Ten
Vs.
Vitalogy

second:
No Code
Yield
Binaural

third:
Riot Act
S/T

fourth:
Backspacer
Lightning Bolt

I feel like this is mainly based on album themes and where the band's mindset was at when the album was made. In the first era, there's a lot of personal strife that goes largely unresolved, and if there is a resolution, it's temporary and fleeting. The band itself was a mess during this time, and struggling to grasp their fame and making peace with it.

In the second era, they really start to explore possibilities and become very introspective. This came at a time when the band had become very democratic and had everyone really pitching in with ideas. I feel like Yield really was the pinnacle of that relationship between the band members, yet Binaural may have suffered from too much of it. Too many different ideas coming from different band members to where it seems disjointed.

In the third era, Riot Act and S/T almost serve as a two-part series. Riot Act came at a post-9/11 time when the Band was fed up with the Bush administration and were feeling rather hopeless. They also are returning to the studio for the first time since the Roskilde tragedy. This is a thematically depressing album (I feel moreso than any of the others) and is very bleak, with no positive outcome in sight. S/T answers it with a confident, definitive protest. They're mad as hell, and they're not gonna take it anymore. Most people here probably would not group these albums together, and I will admit that they are very different, but I feel like they S/T served as a response to questions raised in Riot Act.

In the fourth era, the band no longer has a specific source of angst or anything to protest. They were pleased with the outcome of the 2008 election and had very little to rally against politically. I feel like Backspacer is a return to their mindset of the second era, and they are continuing with an exploration of themselves. They are now older, and thus their style has changed. They are positive, hence their music has more shine to it. I feel like Lightning Bolt is carrying that torch further, and now digging into a deeper and darker place (from what I've heard).

This concept of "eras" for a band or artist is something that interests me. The first and third eras I laid out suggest they were writing about some larger and very specific issues that required some urgency to be addressed, resulting in darker-themed albums. The second and fourth eras are during times when the band was mostly content with where they were at, both as individuals and as a band, resulting in more experimental and positive albums.

This then starts a discussion as to whether a band performs better when in distress or when they are free to explore other places. Will the Backspacer (and likely Lightning Bolt) haters be appeased when the band is once again pushed back into a darker place when the sociopolitical landscape inevitably changes again for the worse?

I guess what I love about this band is that there is absolutely no way of knowing where they'll go next. Their albums are obviously a reaction to what is going on in their lives at the moment. So far, Lightning Bolt is going into unexpected places, which I personally find exciting.

That was a amazing post. great job.

stip wrote:

Ledbetterdays wrote:

stip wrote:

Ledbetterdays wrote:I think so much has to do with when you got on board with the band and what kept you here. I like most of what I have heard but none of it will be as impressive or important as pre-Binaural. I have too much history with those songs and that band. People want Pearl Jam to be a lot of different things and I think many fans have been let down for the past ten years with those expectations. I still think the Star Wars analogy is a good one. If you grew up with the first three movies you will never love the last three. Or the next ten Disney will put out, but there will be hope and curiosity and for some that will be enough and for others it will not. Some bands find a way to reboot well into their careers but it requires commercial success. I do not think Sirens or anything else they have done comes close to that level of selling out.

the problem with this analogy is that the prequels are just wretchedly awful by almost any possible standard and fail most of the basic fundamental tasks of good storytelling. But your point about what you're looking for is still well taken

I know but that is kinda the point. Kids who started with those movies look at the old ones as dated and kinda boring. I think a lot of people who got on board with Pearl Jam later have an easier time embracing the new style.

those kids are just idiots (not for finding the older movies dated or boring, but for thinking that the newer films are in any way superior. Maybe none of them are worthwhile, but I just can't even begin to envision how the later wold be preferable to anyone

so in this analogy you're thodoks (or chud, or vtt, or...)

stip wrote:Okay team, lets get serious for a second. I just went back and looked at my pearl jam rankings chart I made ages ago for some thing we were doing two iterations of the board ago (pre backspacer). My current album rankings would look like this (the number is the average score of the songs on that album from 1-5).



Vitalogy: 4.6 (my favorite record of all time. I'm too hard on things)
Ten: 4. 36
Vs: 4.08
Backspacer: 3.87
Yield: 3.58
S/T: 3.47
No Code:3.35
Riot Act: 3.33
Binaural: 3.19

So here's what i learned. Backspacer is actually pretty far ahead of Yield and S/T (I thought they were closer). That album has just aged so well for me. S/T has gone down a bit in my esteem, and Yield has a pretty solid on it. No Code used to be on the bottom for me, so it's moved up a bit. And Riot Act has improved quite a bit too, based on new appreciations for cropduster and Get Right, and a renewed appreciation for Ghost. So Binaural is in the basement, and doesn't look to be climbing out any time soon.


So here is what's really surprising. Looking at the 6 tracks, and being conservative, I'd give Lightning bolt a 3.83. That's a fairly conservative estimate, and we still haven't heard what I am expecting to be 3 of the strongest tracks on the record. So it is entirely possibly that this record could actually knock Backspacer out of my 4 spot. This record could very well be my favorite pearl jam album since Vitalogy. Even if, say, 3 of the songs are average and 3 are good, but nothing is great, it'll still be better than everything but Backspacer.

Don't let me down, second half of the record!

Just out of interest Stip, did you include every track on Vitalogy or just the 10 songs? Red Dot on Yield?

I'm bored at work and thought I'd give this a go. Seems a lot of work though.

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:love:
still waiting...

like:
Getaway
MYM

bleh:
Swallowed Whole

hate:
Sirens
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

You probably just need to listen to every single song on here over and over until you get it.

Sirens has actually aged worse for me (it was a 'bleh'). I don't hear how its a grower.

Don't say that out loud! Stip will freak out!

I don't necessarily think people will like it after a lot of listens. I think it takes a few listens to get over the culture shock of the style before you can decide whether or not you like it. Im not one of Sirens' aggressive defenders. It's no The Fixer!

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

Ledbetterdays wrote:

stip wrote:

Ledbetterdays wrote:I think so much has to do with when you got on board with the band and what kept you here. I like most of what I have heard but none of it will be as impressive or important as pre-Binaural. I have too much history with those songs and that band. People want Pearl Jam to be a lot of different things and I think many fans have been let down for the past ten years with those expectations. I still think the Star Wars analogy is a good one. If you grew up with the first three movies you will never love the last three. Or the next ten Disney will put out, but there will be hope and curiosity and for some that will be enough and for others it will not. Some bands find a way to reboot well into their careers but it requires commercial success. I do not think Sirens or anything else they have done comes close to that level of selling out.

the problem with this analogy is that the prequels are just wretchedly awful by almost any possible standard and fail most of the basic fundamental tasks of good storytelling. But your point about what you're looking for is still well taken

I know but that is kinda the point. Kids who started with those movies look at the old ones as dated and kinda boring. I think a lot of people who got on board with Pearl Jam later have an easier time embracing the new style.

those kids are just idiots (not for finding the older movies dated or boring, but for thinking that the newer films are in any way superior. Maybe none of them are worthwhile, but I just can't even begin to envision how the later wold be preferable to anyone

so in this analogy you're thodoks (or chud, or vtt, or...)

Meesah guess so

LetMeSleep wrote:

stip wrote:Okay team, lets get serious for a second. I just went back and looked at my pearl jam rankings chart I made ages ago for some thing we were doing two iterations of the board ago (pre backspacer). My current album rankings would look like this (the number is the average score of the songs on that album from 1-5).



Vitalogy: 4.6 (my favorite record of all time. I'm too hard on things)
Ten: 4. 36
Vs: 4.08
Backspacer: 3.87
Yield: 3.58
S/T: 3.47
No Code:3.35
Riot Act: 3.33
Binaural: 3.19

So here's what i learned. Backspacer is actually pretty far ahead of Yield and S/T (I thought they were closer). That album has just aged so well for me. S/T has gone down a bit in my esteem, and Yield has a pretty solid on it. No Code used to be on the bottom for me, so it's moved up a bit. And Riot Act has improved quite a bit too, based on new appreciations for cropduster and Get Right, and a renewed appreciation for Ghost. So Binaural is in the basement, and doesn't look to be climbing out any time soon.


So here is what's really surprising. Looking at the 6 tracks, and being conservative, I'd give Lightning bolt a 3.83. That's a fairly conservative estimate, and we still haven't heard what I am expecting to be 3 of the strongest tracks on the record. So it is entirely possibly that this record could actually knock Backspacer out of my 4 spot. This record could very well be my favorite pearl jam album since Vitalogy. Even if, say, 3 of the songs are average and 3 are good, but nothing is great, it'll still be better than everything but Backspacer.

Don't let me down, second half of the record!

Just out of interest Stip, did you include every track on Vitalogy or just the 10 songs? Red Dot on Yield?

I'm bored at work and thought I'd give this a go. Seems a lot of work though.

I left out the 4 unconventional tracks on Vitalogy and Red dot. I included things like Arc and Soon Forget. Defensible, I think, if slightly arbitrary. I have just never really thought of those songs as 'songs'. More like special features.

stip wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:love:
still waiting...

like:
Getaway
MYM

bleh:
Swallowed Whole

hate:
Sirens
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

You probably just need to listen to every single song on here over and over until you get it.

Sirens has actually aged worse for me (it was a 'bleh'). I don't hear how its a grower.

Don't say that out loud! Stip will freak out!

I don't think people will like it after a lot of listens. I think it takes a few listens to get over the culture shock of the style before you can decide whether or not you like it. Im not one of Sirens' aggressive defenders. It's no The Fixer!

I've never got the point of "defending" a song/album. Discussing their merits, fine, but defending implies an extremely impassioned response to somebody else's opinion. I looooove Sirens, but I'm not annoyed in the slightest by those who hate it. Musical tastes vary - no doubt some of those same people love something like Cropduster. I can't stand it, but I don't feel like I need to rail against them for that.

ABNorman wrote:

stip wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:love:
still waiting...

like:
Getaway
MYM

bleh:
Swallowed Whole

hate:
Sirens
Lightning Bolt
Let the Records Play
Future Days

You probably just need to listen to every single song on here over and over until you get it.

Sirens has actually aged worse for me (it was a 'bleh'). I don't hear how its a grower.

Don't say that out loud! Stip will freak out!

I don't think people will like it after a lot of listens. I think it takes a few listens to get over the culture shock of the style before you can decide whether or not you like it. Im not one of Sirens' aggressive defenders. It's no The Fixer!

I've never got the point of "defending" a song/album. Discussing their merits, fine, but defending implies an extremely impassioned response to somebody else's opinion. I looooove Sirens, but I'm not annoyed in the slightest by those who hate it. Musical tastes vary - no doubt some of those same people love something like Cropduster. I can't stand it, but I don't feel like I need to rail against them for that.

that's true. but discussions about why people do or don't like songs are interesting. that's not the same thing as railing against something just because people like or don't like it.

I also do think (unlike many/most here, apparently) that the context a song is situated in/expectations you have for what it SHOULD sound like can impact your perception of a song, and if that context or expectations change your opinion of a song can change too. Sirens and The Fixer are probably the two most extreme examples of this.

Interesting. Here goes:

Vitalogy = 4.14 or 4.7 (without the 4)
Ten = 4.27
Vs = 4.25
Yield = 3.85 or 4 (without Red Dot)
No Code = 3.76
ST = 3.76
Binaural = 3.73
BS = 3.54
Riot Act = 3.53

And LB after 6 tracks is hitting 2.83


And from our last rankings based on just listening without rating:
Vitalogy
Ten
Yield
Vs
No Code
S/T
Riot Act
Backspacer
Binaural

Think it'll leak this week?

No, which is too bad. It would be a good week for me

stip wrote: that's true. but discussions about why people do or don't like songs are interesting. that's not the same thing as railing against something just because people like or don't like it.

I guess this is the problem - obviously discussion boards are here for discussion, but there's usually a whole lot of railing for railing's sake.

I agree that context can change an attitude toward a song. If a song that doesn't excite me/fit in is situated on an otherwise cohesive album, I'll probably enjoy it more. Hearing Parting Ways in the context of a live show is what turned me back onto Binaural initially. I've just learnt that taking too much stock in other peoples' opinions of stuff like this is a dark road. I'd rather we all just surfed the world together.

Revelator wrote:Think it'll leak this week?

Im really hoping so! The new tunes have grown on me and Im dying to hear the rest

I keep checking here and it hurts my head....

defo be buying it too before anyone starts crying... want the physical thing...

Yay for Maths!

Vitalogy: 4.1
No Code: 3.96
Yield: 3.92
VS: 3.75
Binaural (with Fatal, Sad, Education replacing clunkers): 3.5
Ten: 3.37
Backspacer: 3.22
S/T: 3.19
Binaural (as tracked): 3.19
Riot Act: 3

Considering No Code is my favourite album of all time, and Vitalogy is right up there, it appears I was a bit harsh, but I think my list holds up favourably against my unscientific ranking from earlier:

No Code/Vitalogy/Vs/Yield/Ten/Binaural/Backspacer/ST/Riot Act.

The only problem with the maths approach is that there are some sequencing moments that are brilliant that don't necessarily translate. I really like the opening 6 of Riot Act but on paper they don't add up. Whereas Binaural is better on paper as I feel it just loses momentum again and again. The songs are good but the tracklist suffers.

Hopefully LB has a great track sequence with well thought out transitions. I already think it doesn't with Sirens ending not fading and with LB doing the opposite. We'll soon see/hear though.

LetMeSleep wrote:The only problem with the maths approach is that there are some sequencing moments that are brilliant that don't necessarily translate. I really like the opening 6 of Riot Act but on paper they don't add up. Whereas Binaural is better on paper as I feel it just loses momentum again and again. The songs are good but the tracklist suffers.

Hopefully LB has a great track sequence with well thought out transitions. I already think it doesn't with Sirens ending not fading and with LB doing the opposite. We'll soon see/hear though.

Yeah, I treated the maths approach as a (fun) different way of looking at things. It doesn't take context into consideration. But maybe it says something about the way I listen to music that my "gut feeling" ranking and this method are largely similar.