Red Mosquito

Great means strong musical performances, singing that elevates the lyrics, songs with something interesting to say and a distinct, occasionally unconventional (within the artist's catalog) voice, a sense of deep emotional investment in those ideas by the band (or at least by some members), and production that highlights the best qualities if each song. Being a little artistically dangerous helps a lot. Leaning too heavily on convention...your own or in general...does not.

And no, I doubt there will ever be another pearl jam album that even attempts to achieve these ends.

I'd say that really great, at least in my conception, is something groundbreaking. Something inovative and something differente from anything they ever done. Getting out of the confort zone, you know?

I say that the worst problem of LB, is that we heard all of those songs before, and the "new-ish" style of SOME songs, just fall short (Read: Sleeping By Myself, Pendulum and Let The Record Plays).

And for worst, If we did not heard it before FROM Pearl Jam (Getaway, Mind Your Manners, Father's Son, Sirens, Infallible, Future Days), we heard from Ed Vedder (Swalloed Whole).

Its just, replaying old songs with a new face, you know?
AT LEAST by the time BS was released, it was pretty "inovative-ish" from wha we had so far.

McParadigm wrote:Great means strong musical performances, singing that elevates the lyrics, songs with something interesting to say and a distinct, occasionally unconventional (within the artist's catalog) voice, a sense of deep emotional investment in those ideas by the band (or at least by some members), and production that highlights the best qualities if each song. Being a little artistically dangerous helps a lot. Leaning too heavily on convention...your own or in general...does not.

And no, I doubt there will ever be another pearl jam album that even attempts to achieve these ends.

I guess I wonder how many of their albums ever tried or sought to achieve those things.

And then there's always the whole what's interesting to you may not be to me or to Mr. Vedder. Perhaps Mr. Vedder believes that Future Days is a prime example of singing that elevates the lyrics and has something very interesting to say. And on and on. You see what I mean.

I agree with what Kurt said earlier about their desire to have new material to sell concert tickets and keep shows fresh. That's probably much more their mindset anymore. But I do 100% believe that it's within them to make another great record. It's just a matter of whether or not they want to.

KurtLeon wrote:I'd say that really great, at least in my conception, is something groundbreaking. Something inovative and something differente from anything they ever done. Getting out of the confort zone, you know?

I say that the worst problem of LB, is that we heard all of those songs before, and the "new-ish" style of SOME songs, just fall short (Read: Sleeping By Myself, Pendulum and Let The Record Plays).

And for worst, If we did not heard it before FROM Pearl Jam (Getaway, Mind Your Manners, Father's Son, Sirens, Infallible, Future Days), we heard from Ed Vedder (Swalloed Whole).

Its just, replaying old songs with a new face, you know?
AT LEAST by the time BS was released, it was pretty "inovative-ish" from wha we had so far.

1. Based on your definition above, has Pearl Jam ever made a great album?

2. I disagree about Backspacer. What was innovative about it?

durdencommatyler wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:I'd say that really great, at least in my conception, is something groundbreaking. Something inovative and something differente from anything they ever done. Getting out of the confort zone, you know?

I say that the worst problem of LB, is that we heard all of those songs before, and the "new-ish" style of SOME songs, just fall short (Read: Sleeping By Myself, Pendulum and Let The Record Plays).

And for worst, If we did not heard it before FROM Pearl Jam (Getaway, Mind Your Manners, Father's Son, Sirens, Infallible, Future Days), we heard from Ed Vedder (Swalloed Whole).

Its just, replaying old songs with a new face, you know?
AT LEAST by the time BS was released, it was pretty "inovative-ish" from wha we had so far.

1. Based on your definition above, has Pearl Jam ever made a great album?

2. I disagree about Backspacer. What was innovative about it?

1. Vitalogy, No Code, Binaural and Riot Act are great albuns.

2. I don't recall PJ ever making a disc full of dumb-pop songs like Force Of Nature or The Fixer or Got Some.

BS is bland? Yeah, still have this carefree vibe to it.
Yeah, we heard songs like UK, ATW and GSMF before from PJ and JB and The End from Eddie.

But BS sounded new for PJ, while LB sounds BS part 2.

KurtLeon wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:I'd say that really great, at least in my conception, is something groundbreaking. Something inovative and something differente from anything they ever done. Getting out of the confort zone, you know?

I say that the worst problem of LB, is that we heard all of those songs before, and the "new-ish" style of SOME songs, just fall short (Read: Sleeping By Myself, Pendulum and Let The Record Plays).

And for worst, If we did not heard it before FROM Pearl Jam (Getaway, Mind Your Manners, Father's Son, Sirens, Infallible, Future Days), we heard from Ed Vedder (Swalloed Whole).

Its just, replaying old songs with a new face, you know?
AT LEAST by the time BS was released, it was pretty "inovative-ish" from wha we had so far.

1. Based on your definition above, has Pearl Jam ever made a great album?

2. I disagree about Backspacer. What was innovative about it?

1. Vitalogy, No Code, Binaural and Riot Act are great albuns.

2. I don't recall PJ ever making a disc full of dumb-pop songs like Force Of Nature or The Fixer or Got Some.

BS is bland? Yeah, still have this carefree vibe to it.
Yeah, we heard songs like UK, ATW and GSMF before from PJ and JB and The End from Eddie.

But BS sounded new for PJ, while LB sounds BS part 2.

What was groundbreaking and innovative about Vitalogy, No Code, Binaural and Riot Act?

tragabigzanda wrote:I've beat this drum before, but they will release another great album when they are compelled to do so by outside circumstances -- a Trump presidency, death of a family member, something to jar them out of their comfort zone; something that makes Eddie feel so bad that he can't just cure it with a joint and a surf.

Yup.

durdencommatyler wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:I'd say that really great, at least in my conception, is something groundbreaking. Something inovative and something differente from anything they ever done. Getting out of the confort zone, you know?

I say that the worst problem of LB, is that we heard all of those songs before, and the "new-ish" style of SOME songs, just fall short (Read: Sleeping By Myself, Pendulum and Let The Record Plays).

And for worst, If we did not heard it before FROM Pearl Jam (Getaway, Mind Your Manners, Father's Son, Sirens, Infallible, Future Days), we heard from Ed Vedder (Swalloed Whole).

Its just, replaying old songs with a new face, you know?
AT LEAST by the time BS was released, it was pretty "inovative-ish" from wha we had so far.

1. Based on your definition above, has Pearl Jam ever made a great album?

2. I disagree about Backspacer. What was innovative about it?

1. Vitalogy, No Code, Binaural and Riot Act are great albuns.

2. I don't recall PJ ever making a disc full of dumb-pop songs like Force Of Nature or The Fixer or Got Some.

BS is bland? Yeah, still have this carefree vibe to it.
Yeah, we heard songs like UK, ATW and GSMF before from PJ and JB and The End from Eddie.

But BS sounded new for PJ, while LB sounds BS part 2.

What was groundbreaking and innovative about Vitalogy, No Code, Binaural and Riot Act?

When I Say groundbreaking I don't mean "groundbreaking for the music industry", but for what they were doing with their songs and their records so far.

Those albuns have a very distinct sound to them. When, before Vitalogy, we got to see something like Tremor Christ or Corduroy?
Or Of The Girl, Insignificance, Off He Goes, Present Tense, Can't Keep, Help Help, You Are and the list goes on...

They don't recall anything from their other works, is not like "Sirens", that "oh, its s great pop song that recalls Black", or MYM that recalls Spin The Black Circle.

KurtLeon wrote:When I Say groundbreaking I don't mean "groundbreaking for the music industry", but for what they were doing with their songs and their records so far.

Those albuns have a very distinct sound to them. When, before Vitalogy, we got to see something like Tremor Christ or Corduroy?
Or Of The Girl, Insignificance, Off He Goes, Present Tense, Can't Keep, Help Help, You Are and the list goes on...

They don't recall anything from their other works, is not like "Sirens", that "oh, its s great pop song that recalls Black", or MYM that recalls Spin The Black Circle.

Interesting. If you'd said Aye Davanita or Stupid Mop or Bugs, I would be totally with you on Vitalogy. But I don't think Tremor Christ or Corduroy are all that far removed from things we heard on Ten and Vs (especially Corduroy).

The production values in Binaural I think certainly qualify it for groundbreaking and interesting within their own work. I certainly don't think Can't Keep or Off He Goes are that far removed from things like Wash or Small Town or Indifference or even Daughter.

Sure, there are songs on every album that sound different and they quit taking any real risks after Binaural. But Vitalogy (definitely) and No Code (maybe) and Binaural (probably) are the only albums I'd say they really tried anything totally different or set out to make some sort of artistic statement or whatever. By your definition, I'd maybe call those two great albums.

And, again, it's all personal preference. It's subjective, obviously, etc, etc, etc. But I think the songs are more interesting on LB than BS. Having said that, there are a couple of songs on Backspacer that kick the shit out of almost every track on LB.

I think an album that feels really vital, in any capacity to any audience, is pretty unlikely. I do not think their general senses for writing good music have escaped them, and I don't doubt that a few small changes to their working process could do wonders in bringing their strengths to the fore. However, as a band, they seem very disinterested in anything other than the path of absolute least resistance, and they don't release new music at a regular enough pace to really convey a sense of what their vision is as a band anymore, insofar as they have one. I think they're a talented enough group of guys to continue to crank out enjoyable, sometimes very enjoyable, new music when the schedule tells them it's time to, but that next-level record seems pretty inaccessible to them under present-day circumstances.

PJ have never made truly groundbreaking music in a larger sense, but they've pushed themselves to their own limits, and for a good few years their music asked a lot of questions about what a rock band with their influences and limitations could do without compromising the basic integrity of what they are at their core. I know there is an argument to be made that "Sirens" and "Just Breathe" are a greater challenge to their pop-resistant fanbase than "No Code" ever was, but I think it's also difficult to view this type of music as a challenge to one set of conventions when it seems to so blatantly pander to another. I dunno -- overall I just think the band feels like less of a priority to all involved, and in some overarching, vaguely intangible way, it comes across their work.

Well said, KD. I'm kind of hoping they all realize at the same time how they are really old and start to panic about life and draw off of that to give us a great record

Let's face it. The band is only capable of writing really good music while bound by the shackles of a major music label.

Kevin Davis wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:I'm appalled at those who hear little similarities between the riffs I posted. Do you even know how to listen to music? You're deluding yourself if you think they don't sound alike. The guitar parts are the exact same chord shape, the exact same rhythm, just moving in different directions. Ed's vocal phrasing is a near-facsimile too.

I do know how to listen to music! And you're right, they are the exact same rhythm; however, they do not use the exact same intervals (which is what I'm assuming you mean by "chord shape," which in these cases are all just standard power chords). This particular segment of "Worldwide Suicide" begins, to my ears, on what would be the relative minor to the root (which is to say, if the song is in C, this riff starts on A), the next chord being a minor third up (three half steps); this fragment of "Getaway" begins on the fourth in relation to the root (if the song is in C, this riff starts on F), with the next chord being a major third interval up (two full steps, unlike the 1.5 in "WWS"). The same subtle differences exist in the notes that resolve and restart the riffs as well. They may be minor differences, but there are punk bands whose entire catalogs consist entirely of these kinds of minor differences, so I don't think the fact that Pearl Jam have made two songs over 25 years that set varying pitches to the same rhythmic pattern is really that noteworthy an occurrence.

Musical patterns recurring throughout the lengthy career of an artist or band does not by itself constitute a "lift." Do people really think the band sits around saying, "Hey, let's just re-use one of our old riffs -- these idiots will never know, and it'll be way less work!"

This is a great post

Kevin Davis wrote:I think an album that feels really vital, in any capacity to any audience, is pretty unlikely. I do not think their general senses for writing good music have escaped them, and I don't doubt that a few small changes to their working process could do wonders in bringing their strengths to the fore. However, as a band, they seem very disinterested in anything other than the path of absolute least resistance, and they don't release new music at a regular enough pace to really convey a sense of what their vision is as a band anymore, insofar as they have one. I think they're a talented enough group of guys to continue to crank out enjoyable, sometimes very enjoyable, new music when the schedule tells them it's time to, but that next-level record seems pretty inaccessible to them under present-day circumstances.

PJ have never made truly groundbreaking music in a larger sense, but they've pushed themselves to their own limits, and for a good few years their music asked a lot of questions about what a rock band with their influences and limitations could do without compromising the basic integrity of what they are at their core. I know there is an argument to be made that "Sirens" and "Just Breathe" are a greater challenge to their pop-resistant fanbase than "No Code" ever was, but I think it's also difficult to view this type of music as a challenge to one set of conventions when it seems to so blatantly pander to another. I dunno -- overall I just think the band feels like less of a priority to all involved, and in some overarching, vaguely intangible way, it comes across their work.

Very well said.

The one thing I'd tweak or perhaps disagree with is that I don't think the band feels like less of a priority to the members. I think the band is every bit as vital and important to them as it ever was. The distinction I would make is that new music is less of a priority to them.

I absolutely believe pearl jam could make a great album. Perhaps their greatest. It comes down to if they are willing to make the sacrifice needed to make it happen.

I don't know if they have that. Nothing within the past 8 years has led me to believe they would

At this point I don't care. I have so much fucking fun at their concerts I'd be good with them just touring

Strat wrote:I absolutely believe pearl jam could make a great album. Perhaps their greatest. It comes down to if they are willing to make the sacrifice needed to make it happen.

I don't know if they have that. Nothing within the past 8 years has led me to believe they would

So a late night tossing of Boom into a volcano?

E.H. Ruddock wrote:At this point I don't care. I have so much fucking fun at their concerts I'd be good with them just touring

Yes and I want more.