Red Mosquito

Kevin Davis wrote:

Billy Corgan is a much better songwriter than every member of PJ combined

Come on, I love the Pumpkins but this is totally asinine.

It's a matter of taste and I am prone to hyperbole (and I say that mostly because the songwriting abilities of most of the members of PJ are pretty weak, Matt and Ed excepted). Few artists have ever disappointed their fans more than the Smashing Pumpkins. If you guys think you are disappointed with PJ over the last few records should spend some time on Netphoria (SP equivalent of TSIS). Those people are more jaded than any group of music fans I've ever encountered. Smashing Pumpkins fans are fucking crazy.

I think there's a corollary between how much fans are invested in your music and how disappointed they will inevitably be when their favorite artist inevitably and eventually fails them. The bands on that list, as stupid as it is, are in most part bands that had a long way to fall.

matt reeder wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Billy Corgan is a much better songwriter than every member of PJ combined

Come on, I love the Pumpkins but this is totally asinine.

It's a matter of taste and I am prone to hyperbole (and I say that mostly because the songwriting abilities of most of the members of PJ are pretty weak, Matt and Ed excepted). Few artists have ever disappointed their fans more than the Smashing Pumpkins. If you guys think you are disappointed with PJ over the last few records should spend some time on Netphoria (SP equivalent of TSIS). Those people are more jaded than any group of music fans I've ever encountered. Smashing Pumpkins fans are fucking crazy.

I think there's a corollary between how much fans are invested in your music and how disappointed they will inevitably be when their favorite artist inevitably and eventually fails them. The bands on that list, as stupid as it is, are in most part bands that had a long way to fall.

Great post. Actually one thing I was thinking, while I was reading, was how comforting it was that other bands have made their S/Ts and Backspacers and are still remembered with such fondness years later.

matt reeder wrote:

harmless wrote:So it sounds like Machina was Smashing Pumpkins' Backspacer.

It's their Riot Act - a return to rock that a lot of people don't really understand, and that didn't sell very well despite a couple of very strong lead singles. Adore is absolutely their Binaural - dark, moody and unmemorable to most outsiders, but beloved to the band's hardcore fans.

And if we're continuing the comparison, Zeitgeist is their Pearl Jam and Oceania is their Backspacer - both are "return to rock" albums, but the first one is dark and political while the second is fun and more light-hearted. Pearl Jam is a much better album than Zeitgeist while Oceania is a much better album than Backspacer.

This is also reminding me that Billy Corgan is a much better songwriter than every member of PJ combined but wastes it a lot more by putting out albums he thinks people (or critics) want, rather than what he wants to do. That's why he's a three-time offender on this really stupid list.

Great post...and yeah Billy is better than the PJ guys, but PJ is a collaborative band while the pumpkins suffers from Billy lack of collaboration.

I would say its impossible for a long lasting band to disappoint their fans...at least a part of their fan base.

theplatypus wrote:

turned2black wrote:Cut the Crap is a blight on The Clash's legacy. It should have been buried in the New Mexico desert with all those E.T. cartridges.

"This is England" isn't so bad

This Is England is so much more than just ok. This Is England is one of the best singles they ever released. I don't care that I only know about three people that agree with me. That song is cutting and insightful and everything that was great about Joe.

"A voice so cold it matched the weapon in her palm
This is England
This knife of Sheffield steel..."

Goosebumps every single time. I NEVER get tired of that song.

Lament, I recently discovered Joe's work in the Walker soundtrack. Have you heard it? It's so good. I'd never listened to it before but it's wonderful as more than a genre exercise. Some really good songs.

theplatypus wrote:Lament, I recently discovered Joe's work in the Walker soundtrack. Have you heard it? It's so good. I'd never listened to it before but it's wonderful as more than a genre exercise. Some really good songs.

its fucking awesome. And Alex Cox ....

matt reeder wrote:I think there's a corollary between how much fans are invested in your music and how disappointed they will inevitably be when their favorite artist inevitably and eventually fails them. The bands on that list, as stupid as it is, are in most part bands that had a long way to fall.

Very true, in all walks of life I think. No one has more power to hurt us than the ones we love the most.

Billy Corgan is a wonderful songwriter--especially during the first few years of the band, I love how the sonic character of the group is not only dressing for but is effectively a built-in part of many of Corgan's compositions. And suffice it to say a mix CD of his best ballads would rank with anyone's. I haven't kept up with Corgan's work post-"Zeitgeist," but I've got 10-12 CD's on my shelf supporting the hypothesis that the dude can write.

With the exception of Eddie, no one person in Pearl Jam is quite as accomplished on a broad scale (whose songs you prefer is, as you say, a matter of preference). But everyone in the band has virtues as a songwriter, and I guess when I imagine a single songwriter with a combination of those virtues (and, perhaps more importantly, the correct instincts for making that combination work), he mops the floor not only with Corgan but with most songwriters.

Are you not a fan of Stone's songwriting, Matt?

theplatypus wrote:Lament, I recently discovered Joe's work in the Walker soundtrack. Have you heard it? It's so good. I'd never listened to it before but it's wonderful as more than a genre exercise. Some really good songs.

Yes! It's been some years, but I used to be in a band with a kid who thought he was Joe Strummer & he turned me on to that soundtrack. Very enjoyable. I always thought it worked well as a companion piece of sort to Global A Go Go.

Kevin Davis wrote:

matt reeder wrote:I think there's a corollary between how much fans are invested in your music and how disappointed they will inevitably be when their favorite artist inevitably and eventually fails them. The bands on that list, as stupid as it is, are in most part bands that had a long way to fall.

Very true, in all walks of life I think. No one has more power to hurt us than the ones we love the most.

Billy Corgan is a wonderful songwriter--especially during the first few years of the band, I love how the sonic character of the group is not only dressing for but is effectively a built-in part of many of Corgan's compositions. And suffice it to say a mix CD of his best ballads would rank with anyone's. I haven't kept up with Corgan's work post-"Zeitgeist," but I've got 10-12 CD's on my shelf supporting the hypothesis that the dude can write.

With the exception of Eddie, no one person in Pearl Jam is quite as accomplished on a broad scale (whose songs you prefer is, as you say, a matter of preference). But everyone in the band has virtues as a songwriter, and I guess when I imagine a single songwriter with a combination of those virtues (and, perhaps more importantly, the correct instincts for making that combination work), he mops the floor not only with Corgan but with most songwriters.

Are you not a fan of Stone's songwriting, Matt?

Both Eddie Vedder and Billy Corgan peaked as songwriters from 1993 - 1998. Both wrote some of my favorite songs ever, and I know plenty of people who love one or the other (or both), and plenty of people who hate one or the other (or both). It's a matter of preference. I love both, but they are very different. Since the Aeroplane Flies High reissue I've been on a huge Smashing Pumpkins kick so right now I'm swinging a lot more towards Billy Corgan. I'm sure when I see PJ this fall I'll spend a good month blasting PJ (and probably even if I hate their new album, which is a distinct possibility).

You're absolutely right about the other members of PJ having virtues as a songwriter. PJ works best when those guys bring in a song and then work together on it. They work best when they focus on each others strengths. PJ is a band that is far superior to the sum of its parts (and I say this as a non-supporter of Eddie's solo career). All five of those guys alone aren't all that much - even Ed and Matt, though those guys are fascinating in their own right. Stone...well, he wrote some of my favorite PJ songs but the only song of his I've liked since 2000 is "Parachutes". Maybe I should try listening to Brad, though the last time I did it didn't end well. Mike and Jeff are just there for me...they don't stand out to me at all as musicians or songwriters. Jeff wrote "Nothing As It Seems" but after hearing the demo, it's a good thing he brought that to the band. I just don't think much of those two or Stone as songwriters on their own. On the other hand, PJ wouldn't be PJ without all five contributing. They're a band, whereas Smashing Pumpkins are essentially a solo project for Billy Corgan. As time goes on, Billy is having more and more trouble deciding what he wants to do with his band, and which songs / albums he should actually release. I firmly believe that with better self-editing, a better understanding of their strengths and weaknesses and a better public image that The Smashing Pumpkins would be remembered as one of the greatest bands ever - but they (and really Billy, though everybody else in that band has contributed as well) simply cannot stop from shooting themselves in the foot. Would people have been disappointed with Machina if they'd actually released the best 12 - 15 songs recorded during those sessions instead of whatever 15 Billy decided fit his concept?

Perception is everything, which is why the bands on this list are there. Would either Metallica or Load have been disappointing if they hadn't been preceded by 4 of the greatest metal albums of all time? Would Kid A have been given as much attention upon its release if OK Computer wasn't one of the greatest albums ever recorded? Was No Code a disappointment just because it sounded different than the previous albums or was it a disappointment because Pearl Jam had moved on while many of its fans had not? Was Chinese Democracy a disappointment because it couldn't be anything but?

You aren't missing much since Zeitgeist. Oceania is pretty good but doesn't compare with anything the original group released. Billy's written and recorded a solid album's worth of material over the last 5 or so years, but of course, only some of that has actually been released. The rest? Who knows why Billy Corgan does what he does.

Fucking Billy Corgan.

matt reeder wrote:Fucking Billy Corgan.

I always thought that Corgan needed a producer like Rick Rubin for everything after Adore. Someone to seperate the wheat from the chaff for Billy. As someone who only got into the Pumpkins with the re-issues, I am pretty blown away by Billy's versatility and growth as a songwriter. In that regard, I think he's underrated by pretty much everyone but himself.

theplatypus wrote:

on Puff Daddy's album Forever, the writer wrote:Then again, Puff wasn’t able to capitalize on a more talented and famous friend’s death for this one so you can’t really blame him I guess

Ouch. Low blow.

But true.

i thought this list was terrible outside of the rap albums. i guess starting w 'warning' and 'no code' wasnt a great start for me. however, the dude did kinda nail the rap albums. does anyone remember when snoop signed w/ no limit? ugh.

warehouse wrote:does anyone remember when snoop signed w/ no limit?

Like yesterday

theplatypus wrote:

warehouse wrote:does anyone remember when snoop signed w/ no limit?

Like yesterday

yeah i didnt think that would get a real response. were u even alive?

I actually did own a bunch of ODB and Master P albums when I was like 13

and MYSTIKAL

theplatypus wrote:I actually did own a bunch of ODB and Master P albums when I was like 13

who knew our musical tastes were so similar as 13 year olds?

I wasn't putting down those rappers, but I really did go through a brief No Limit phase. The covers were so colorful.

So this was about whether or not they were disappointing at the time they came out? I guess I dunno, since 90% of the list I picked up after the fact.

I think the only two that drew my attention were: Load/Reload is probably the only post-Master record set that actually shows Metallica trying to be anything other than a cartoon metal band...I enjoy those records more than most of their work, if largely because they were trying new things and looking for a way to reinvent. It's possible it would have come across better as a double record, though, which is how I picked it up. And Final Cut is in the upper half of Pink Floyd albums by far (also, even Radio KAOS has Home on it, goddamn it).

matt reeder wrote:Maybe I should try listening to Brad, though the last time I did it didn't end well.

I've tried listening to Brad before and found it pretty dull. Try Stone's two solo albums--there's a creative spirit to them completely absent from all but the most adventurous of Pearl Jam material, a healthy combination of craftsmanship and eccentricity that I really wish he'd bring to the band more often. Much to enjoy, if the voice doesn't break the deal for you.

McParadigm wrote:Load/Reload is probably the only post-Master record set that actually shows Metallica trying to be anything other than a cartoon metal band...I enjoy those records more than most of their work, if largely because they were trying new things and looking for a way to reinvent. It's possible it would have come across better as a double record, though, which is how I picked it up. And Final Cut is in the upper half of Pink Floyd albums by far

Agree with all of this, too. From a songwriting standpoint I think "Final Cut" is almost invariably Pink Floyd's single greatest work--it's just a lot more naked than most people expect from a Pink Floyd album, which is one of the things I love about it. The flourishes are few but they're all completely spot-on.

I always thought "Low Man's Lyric" was an endearing and surprisingly successful example of Metallica being "experimental"--definitely evidence that ol' Jimmy Hetfield has dormant songwriting chops well beyond the realm of crunchy riffery and Bob Rock-solicited "YEAW!"s.