Red Mosquito

i wouldn't take the angel/devil stuff literally in this song. They are metaphors

Lounge Lizard wrote:The lines:

Ransom paid [to] the Devil, he whispers pleasing words.
Triumphant are the angels if they can get there first

are clearly about the temptations that every individual faces, with faith being the only limiting force to keep one's virtue and purity. This is in full compliance with the teachings of Christianity. I have a problem with that, because the scriptures/revelations/suras/whatever are definitely not a sourse of true morality...

I'm not quite sure how you can read any teaching at all in those lines. Some people are overly paranoid that Ed is trying to preach just because he's using religious imagery / metaphor. That's batshit crazy.

harmless wrote:It is widely thought that PJ are an atheist band, but people will read what they like into the songs and there's a huge contingent of atheists in the PJ fan base. What I know is that they're at the very least an agnostic band

For a band that's been so vocal on certain social issues and so hard headed in using the stage to voice their views I find it very difficult to believe that they would assume a fence-sitting position on this matter.

harmless wrote:

Lounge Lizard wrote:The lines:

Ransom paid [to] the Devil, he whispers pleasing words.
Triumphant are the angels if they can get there first

are clearly about the temptations that every individual faces, with faith being the only limiting force to keep one's virtue and purity. This is in full compliance with the teachings of Christianity. I have a problem with that, because the scriptures/revelations/suras/whatever are definitely not a sourse of true morality...

I'm not quite sure how you can read any teaching at all in those lines. Some people are overly paranoid that Ed is trying to preach just because he's using religious imagery / metaphor. That's batshit crazy.

I'd be extremely happy to be wrong. So far you and stip are doing a good job in convincing me that I am

Remember that religious images are the most easily digestible shared metaphors in our culture. If you reference a siren or something from Greek mythology, for instance, you're going to lose a lot of people. Sisyphus is in the liner notes of Vitalogy, rather than a song, even though the story is essential for understanding the album. So the biblical references are useful universal shorthand for talking about temptation, redemption, grace, salvation--ideas that have life far beyond their initial religious context or a literal concern about heaven/hell, afterlife, etc.

Lounge Lizard wrote:

harmless wrote:It is widely thought that PJ are an atheist band, but people will read what they like into the songs and there's a huge contingent of atheists in the PJ fan base. What I know is that they're at the very least an agnostic band

For a band that's been so vocal on certain social issues and so hard headed in using the stage to voice their views I find it very difficult to believe that they would assume a fence-sitting position on this matter.

What? So people of faith aren't concerned with social issues, huh? You live in a binary world where it's either religious fundamentalism or atheism. I don't.

I'm not saying Ed isn't an atheist. I'm saying that his songs are not from an atheist pulpit perspective; they are ambiguous. What is true is that you're not going to enjoy Pearl Jam if you're the kind of religious person who feels offended and attacked every time Ed takes a shot at fundamentalism.

Eddie seems like he's probably a soft believer in the vague 'there is something' sense. As Harmless said, he's clearly against religious dogmatism, and also seems somewhat hostile to the tendency in most religions to take what is best about human beings and transfer it to something that exists outside ourselves, diminishing humanity in the process. Beyond that I think you can find what you want. I'm an atheist, and so I tend to see that, but there are more than a few believers on the board who have never felt alienated by his songs dealing with religious or spiritual themes, and I don't think that's due to a willful act of ignoring or misinterpreting what is there.

harmless wrote:You live in a binary world where it's either religious fundamentalism or atheism. I don't.

No, it's alright to acknowledge that there are lots of people who are undecided, who are sort of in between, but I can still blame them for their cowerdice

Lounge Lizard wrote:

harmless wrote:You live in a binary world where it's either religious fundamentalism or atheism. I don't.

No, it's alright to acknowledge that there are lots of people who are undecided, who are sort of in between, but I can still blame them for their cowerdice

So any progressive, intelligent believer with a faith that is anti-prejudice and concerned with social justice, is just a dickhead to you huh? It's your way or the highway? That kind of unthinking fervency is why I was never a fundamentalist and will never be an atheist either. There's too many judgmental freaks out there.

stip wrote:Eddie seems like he's probably a soft believer in the vague 'there is something' sense.

A deist? I doubt it.

stip wrote:there are more than a few believers on the board who have never felt alienated by his songs dealing with religious or spiritual themes, and I don't think that's due to a willful act of ignoring or misinterpreting what is there.

And that's a good thing. Because they aren't all like that. When MYM came out I ran across two ridiculous pages on the internet. One was a 'Yahoo Answers' topic in which someone asked "PJ are atheists, but I happen to like their music, does that make me a bad Christian?", and the other - a Twitter campaign launched by some group called "Christian Network Alert" urging its members to go on all boards and comment sections of every site promoting MYM and leave messages like "Pearl Jam is shit", "I stopped listening to them 10 years ago", "My brother says Pearl Jam is garbage, and I believe him" PRECISELY BECAUSE they found the lyrics of the single to be an attack of their faith

'PJ are atheists' is a different statement to 'PJ write atheist songs'. One is correct, the other is incorrect. We have a limited window into their private spiritual lives through their songs. Anyone -- Christian or atheist -- thinking that these songs are card-carrying evidence and support for their own beliefs is being a bit of an idiot.

harmless wrote:So any progressive, intelligent believer with a faith that is anti-prejudice and concerned with social justice, is just a dickhead to you huh?

No, of course not. Intelligent people can be afraid too, it's perfectly understandable. There is certainly a percentage (albeit a small one) among professors and distinguished scientists who are still clinging on to some sort of religious faith. Doesn't make them worse at what they do, in most cases at least. I hope

harmless wrote:'PJ are atheists' is a different statement to 'PJ write atheist songs'. One is correct, the other is incorrect. We have a limited window into their private spiritual lives through their songs. Anyone -- Christian or atheist -- thinking that these songs are card-carrying evidence and support for their own beliefs is being a bit of an idiot.

Really? I guess the natural way of things is when artists express views totally opposite to their own

Lounge Lizard wrote:

harmless wrote:So any progressive, intelligent believer with a faith that is anti-prejudice and concerned with social justice, is just a dickhead to you huh?

No, of course not. Intelligent people can be afraid too, it's perfectly understandable. There is certainly a percentage (albeit a small one) among professors and distinguished scientists who are still clinging on to some sort of religious faith. Doesn't make them worse at what they do, in most cases at least. I hope

I just think you're being as arrogant and self-righteous as a fundamentalist about things that none of us have a clue about. To undermine someone and call them 'fearful', in spite of knowing nothing about them and their journey, isn't really an atheist's responsibility. It's usually the self-confessed responsibility of someone who is full of themselves.

Lounge Lizard wrote:

harmless wrote:'PJ are atheists' is a different statement to 'PJ write atheist songs'. One is correct, the other is incorrect. We have a limited window into their private spiritual lives through their songs. Anyone -- Christian or atheist -- thinking that these songs are card-carrying evidence and support for their own beliefs is being a bit of an idiot.

Really? I guess the natural way of things is when artists express views totally opposite to their own

You're just being a dick now. What I'm saying is that not a single statement made in this song, or any song, is inherently 'atheist'. You can disagree, fine, but don't be a fucking tool about it.

harmless wrote:I just think you're being as arrogant and self-righteous as a fundamentalist about things that none of us have a clue about. To undermine someone and call them 'fearful', in spite of knowing nothing about them and their journey, isn't really an atheist's responsibility. It's usually the self-confessed responsibility of someone who is full of themselves.

Look, you seem to detest judgemental attitudes, yet you miss no opportunity to judge me. Get a grip.
What I am saying about fear and religion has nothing to do with my own ego.

Lounge Lizard wrote:

harmless wrote:I just think you're being as arrogant and self-righteous as a fundamentalist about things that none of us have a clue about. To undermine someone and call them 'fearful', in spite of knowing nothing about them and their journey, isn't really an atheist's responsibility. It's usually the self-confessed responsibility of someone who is full of themselves.

Look, you seem to detest judgemental attitudes, yet you miss no opportunity to judge me. Get a grip.
What I am saying about fear and religion has nothing to do with my own ego.

I'm giving back like for like. I'm sure you can cope. What you are saying about fear and religion pays no respect to any nuance about the subject.

harmless wrote:You're just being a dick now. What I'm saying is that not a single statement made in this song, or any song, is inherently 'atheist'. You can disagree, fine, but don't be a fucking tool about it.

I really didn't intend it to get to this

The lyrics in Tremor Christ are metaphorical, the song is about choices and what you base them on. I am relieved now, thank you, Harmless and stip.

I don't think it would be superfluous to add that English is not my native language and sometimes I need native speakers to clarify things which are not immediately apparent to me.

Nothing escalated. You said various things that pissed me off and I told you what I thought of them.