Red Mosquito

Blaine Ryan wrote:

stip wrote:I can't stand the lyrics to off he goes. Cloyingly narcissistic and self-referential. And far too precious. It's too bad, because the music is lovely

Just curious: what about this song do you find narcissistic? Just the fact that the song is purportedly about Eddie himself? I've always thought it was kind of self-denigrating, if anything.

Here is what I wrote about it in the Guided Tour of No Code thread, which probably covers it.

Spoiler: show

Off He Goes

On the surface Off He goes and Who You Are are treading similar ground. Who You Are is a song about accepting yourself for who you are and doesn’t move far beyond that point. Off He Goes, however, which offers us a window into a far more concrete internal debate (externalized through two characters), is not a song about accepting yourself. Instead it is a song about trying to make peace, which implies a current state of war. The song is trying to win a tenuous ceasefire. In that respect, Off He Goes may be closer to In My Tree than Who You Are. Both songs are trying to carve out the space to make self-development possible. And while both are, in certain ways, traveling songs, they are nevertheless grounded in particular places that the subject doesn’t want to remain in for much longer. And so both are uncertain songs, despite the surface confidence--although in My Tree is the more successful of the two in terms of internal resolution.

Musically Off he Goes is beautiful--rich, deep, vibrant, full of weary dignity. But there is also something almost pristine about it. In an odd way the song moves beyond intimacy into something artificial. Off He Goes, more than any other song on No Code, feels like you are watching a character rather than experiencing what they are experiencing. Or, maybe better, the other songs invite you on stage, and Off He Goes asks you to remain in the audience. This is one of the only songs in the catalog without any rough edges or imperfections--there’s nothing here to make this real. Beautiful, but artificial. Crafted. It also (in conjunction with some heavy handed writing) gives the song a narcissistic at worst, self indulgent at best, feel that the rest of the record lacks (this may be because I treat this song as being about coming to grips with being famous, which isn’t very interesting at this point--Vitalogy exhausts this subject).

It may make sense that the music puts up this subtle barrier (although I am sharing it, this is not really for you), since in many ways the lyrics create a space you are asked to observe, rather than participate. We watch our characters from a distance. We are told what to think. We are spectators, rather than actors.

So what are we watching? Off He Goes is a confrontation between the subject and a personification of elements of his personality that need to be more fully integrated into a stable self (wanderlust, passion, judgment, embattlement) Where this confrontation happens is unclear. I picture a living room, late at night, warm, firelit, a room surrounded by pictures, tangible memories. There is a rural, wood paneling feel to the place, presumably coming from the music. The subject is lost in memories, musings, bittersweet regrets. There is someone he cares deeply about who can’t stop running from (or fighting--probably both) the world around them. They are too afraid of stopping to slow down for very long, too busy denying the world to live in it. The imagery of the song is dominated once again (like who you are) by the language of travel and destination. And he has long been showing signs of fatigue and exhaustion. The wear and tear of living in opposition to the world, rather than embracing it. Still, there is a sense that the traveler wants to stop. He wants to come home. He wants to be at peace. The perfectly unkept hope.

And for at least a little while there is a sense he may get there. He comes home. He is reunited with the singer. They are together, whole, and there is the hope that no matter how complex and difficult our context becomes (the surrounding buillshit) the core of that relationship is soft enough to surrender and strong enough to endure.

It is a short lived victory, however. It is an aspirational peace, glimpsed, even grasped, but only for a fleeting moment. The desire to run, the pull of the road, the fear of stopping, the need to confront, the longing for escape. It is all too strong. And so the song ends where it begins. There is a moment of completeness that justifies holding on to hope, but the battle isn’t over. Peace isn’t there. At least not yet.

And so Off He Goes ends on a down note and kicks off a dark 4 song run that marks the low point on No Code’s spiritual journey, a block of songs where we fail to rise above our imperfections the way we do in the records opening run. Unfortunately, these are also some of the weaker songs on the record (with one very notable exception), and when the record itself tries to come full circle the material that is left may not be strong enough to do it.

I hate you. I want to hurt you.

"It's like his thoughts are too big for his size" is a pretty fucking narcissistic thing to write about yourself.

Lament wrote:"It's like his thoughts are too big for his size" is a pretty fucking narcissistic thing to write about yourself.

Claming to have heavy thoughts is narcissistic? Besides, how do you know the song is about Ed?

Iholdthepain wrote:Besides, how do you know the song is about Ed?

"The song "Off He Goes" is really about me being a shit friend. I'll show up and everything's great and then all of the sudden I'm outta there..." -Ed, Spin Magazine, 2001, "Ten Past Ten"

Lamenting that your thoughts are just "too big" for your condition as a human being is extremely narcissistic. It's one thing if someone else describes you in that way, but to do so about yourself is the epitome of narcissism.

I like it when lament and I are on the same team

I think people feeling that Off He Goes is narcissistic is more about things and interviews they've read about the song than anything in the song itself. I didn't know for years it was about Ed or Ed and Neil or whatever it's supposed to be.

Lament wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:Besides, how do you know the song is about Ed?

"The song "Off He Goes" is really about me being a shit friend. I'll show up and everything's great and then all of the sudden I'm outta there..." -Ed, Spin Magazine, 2001, "Ten Past Ten"

Lamenting that your thoughts are just "too big" for your condition as a human being is extremely narcissistic. It's one thing if someone else describes you in that way, but to do so about yourself is the epitome of narcissism.

I think it was BSB'99, Ed claimed he hasn't yet figured out WHO the song is about... Maybe he said that some other time... Not sure, but I remember it. Regardless, I guess it's narcissistic to write anything about one's self, but artists do it all the time. I can see how Ed takes other pov's and writes from angles other than his own quite well. Even this song, he's writing it from the 2nd person.

If that's your only problem with this song, picture it being about someone else. You may get a newfound appreciation for it... I can apply it to my own life... Is that too narcissistic?

stip wrote:I like it when lament and I are on the same team

It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling in my heart when it happens.

digster wrote:I think people feeling that Off He Goes is narcissistic is more about things and interviews they've read about the song than anything in the song itself. I didn't know for years it was about Ed or Ed and Neil or whatever it's supposed to be.

But that's exactly what makes it narcissistic. If he were singing about some aloof friend, then it's observant. When you find out he's singing about himself, then it becomes self-centered. If Ed wrote a song that was three minutes of "He's a really great musician and he's inspirational and had a great career and supports really noble causes" and it were about Neil Young, it'd be a nice tribute to a hero. If it were about himself, it'd be narcissistic. Knowing who/what he's talking about it pretty vital to the discussion.

Exactly. I can't argue Lament and stip on their point of Ed being narcissistic, but as with a lot of their songs I've always been able to really feel this song in my own way and those are feelings I enjoy revisiting. I honestly have never paid much attention to the band outside of their music so waht some songs mean to me and what they mean to Ed or Stone or whoever may be very different. And I'm ok with that.

Lament wrote: But that's exactly what makes it narcissistic. If he were singing about some aloof friend, then it's observant. When you find out he's singing about himself, then it becomes self-centered. If Ed wrote a song that was three minutes of "He's a really great musician and he's inspirational and had a great career and supports really noble causes" and it were about Neil Young, it'd be a nice tribute to a hero. If it were about himself, it'd be narcissistic. Knowing who/what he's talking about it pretty vital to the discussion.

I guess I should amend my statement to saying that it may be narcissistic but it seems irrelevant. If he hadn't said that in an interview, it's doubtful we would be having this conversation, as there's nothing in the song itself that would make you think narcissism. There's a certain amount of narcisissism that's helpful, if not essential, in doing the kind of songwriting Ed does. He does nothing different here than he did espousing about fame and telling people this was not for them during Vitalogy.

digster wrote:I guess I should amend my statement to saying that it may be narcissistic but it's pretty irrelevant. If he hadn't said that in an interview, it's doubtful we would be having this conversation, as there's nothing in the song itself that would make you think narcissism. There's a certain amount of narcisissism that's helpful, if not essential, in doing the kind of songwriting Ed does. He does nothing different here than he did espousing about fame and telling people this was not for them during Vitalogy.

Iholdthepain wrote:I think it was BSB'99, Ed claimed he hasn't yet figured out WHO the song is about... Maybe he said that some other time... Not sure, but I remember it. Regardless, I guess it's narcissistic to write anything about one's self, but artists do it all the time. I can see how Ed takes other pov's and writes from angles other than his own quite well. Even this song, he's writing it from the 2nd person.

If that's your only problem with this song, picture it being about someone else. You may get a newfound appreciation for it... I can apply it to my own life... Is that too narcissistic?

He mentions it being about himself on the Katowice bootleg too from 2000, so it's obviously pretty up front in his head that it's about him.

There are ways to write about yourself without being narcissistic, but talking about how deep you are (especially in the third person) is pretty narcissistic through and through. If this were written by someone like Bono, no one here would disagree.

That's wonderful that you can apply it to your own life, but I don't think that has any bearing on the specific discussion. It's a narcissistic song. Alive is about incest, but people can relate to it in non-incestuous ways. That doesn't make it NOT about incest anymore, just like relating to Off He Goes in a non-narcissistic way doesn't mean it's not narcissistic anymore.

I agree that knowing who/what a song is about is vital to a discussion about that song. But I also I think a person can write reflectively about themselves without it being narcissistic. It's not necessarily one or the other.

durdencommatyler wrote:I agree that knowing who/what a song is about is vital to a discussion about that song. But I also I think a person can write reflectively about themselves without it being narcissistic. It's not necessarily one or the other.

Do you think "It's like his thoughts are too big for his size" is a narcissistic line in this context (independent of whether or not the song as a whole is, or whether or not you like the music)?

Lament wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I agree that knowing who/what a song is about is vital to a discussion about that song. But I also I think a person can write reflectively about themselves without it being narcissistic. It's not necessarily one or the other.

Do you think "It's like his thoughts are too big for his size" is a narcissistic line in this context (independent of whether or not the song as a whole is, or whether or not you like the music)?

I don't, because it's a metaphor. If the line were "His thoughts are too big for his size," I'd maybe think differently. Maybe. But he's just trying to describe a feeling or a thought. And it's something I can relate to. But I don't see narcissism in it, as it stands, no.

I always took it to mean "thoughts/problems too complex/heavy/disturbing for his tiny self to handle", not "I'm fucking brilliant!".

he's dealing with some heavy shit, yo.

BurtReynolds wrote:I always took it to mean "thoughts/problems too complex/heavy/disturbing for his tiny self to handle", not "I'm fucking brilliant!".

Agreed. That's how I always heard it as well. Basically.