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Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 10:46 am
by broken iris
Electromatic wrote:
My opposition is mainly the problem of legacy costs which are pretty much destroying public and private sector budgets and abilities to do anything.
My employer (large publicly traded corporation) closed enrollment in our pension program* a few years after I joined. If it weren't for that program, and the assumption I will get offered a lump sum buyout in the next 10 years, I would have left a while ago. They keep people from yearly job-hopping which is one of the big things destroying large companies' ability to maintain talent. I feel obligated to mention that I believe the pension still existing is a result of the union presence within our line workers as "white collar code" prevents unions from forming at mid level employees.
This is different from public sector unions though as those benefits are paid out tax-payer dollars vs. corporate revenues and I think that's an important distinction. Look at the recent "13th month" paycheck scandal in Detroit as evidence for why the public dislike for public unions has grown.
*sorry, typo there. It still exists and those of us in it are still contributing to it.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 1:19 pm
by stip
Public sector unions are certainly complicated by the fact that it is a not for profit enterprise. At the same time, public sector unions are funded by the public, and it is also asking quite a bit of those workers to just assume that the public is going to justly compensate them, have any meaningful sense of what they should be compensated, approve benefits, etc.
Like anything, this can be abused. Our current contract at my job, while treating me fairly well, is also making it harder for our school to get rid of some people they'd probably like to get rid of. But our union contract has also protected people from having benefits unfairly stripped away, streamlines the process of faculty/administration relations, and can be quite useful. In general I am pretty much always in favor of workers being able to aggregate their power, although I do not necessarily (especially in not for profit/public enterprises) think that unions need to adopt an adversarial relationship with management a priori.
I'm likely going to be our next union president, so we'll see how it goes
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 2:50 pm
by Green Habit
stip wrote:I'm likely going to be our next union president, so we'll see how it goes
I'd love to hear more stories on this if you can tell them.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 3:50 pm
by stip
Most of what we discuss will be confidential but if there are some illuminating stories I can share without compromising privacy I will.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 5:01 pm
by Green Habit
While I'm here, I might as well state that one of my pet peeves is how many libertarian-minded people simply do not like unions. If anything, they should prefer them as a method for firms to police themselves as opposed to the state interfering. It sure makes them look more like corporatists than actual libertarians. In particular, it's inexcusable for any libertarian to support right to work laws. That one drives me nuts.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Mon September 30, 2013 10:47 pm
by Norah
stip wrote:Public sector unions are certainly complicated by the fact that it is a not for profit enterprise. At the same time, public sector unions are funded by the public, and it is also asking quite a bit of those workers to just assume that the public is going to justly compensate them, have any meaningful sense of what they should be compensated, approve benefits, etc.
Like anything, this can be abused. Our current contract at my job, while treating me fairly well, is also making it harder for our school to get rid of some people they'd probably like to get rid of. But our union contract has also protected people from having benefits unfairly stripped away, streamlines the process of faculty/administration relations, and can be quite useful. In general I am pretty much always in favor of workers being able to aggregate their power, although I do not necessarily (especially in not for profit/public enterprises) think that unions need to adopt an adversarial relationship with management a priori.
I'm likely going to be our next union president, so we'll see how it goes
Don't trade your dental plan for a keg of beer.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Tue October 01, 2013 12:50 am
by Green Habit
cutuphalfdead wrote:stip wrote:Public sector unions are certainly complicated by the fact that it is a not for profit enterprise. At the same time, public sector unions are funded by the public, and it is also asking quite a bit of those workers to just assume that the public is going to justly compensate them, have any meaningful sense of what they should be compensated, approve benefits, etc.
Like anything, this can be abused. Our current contract at my job, while treating me fairly well, is also making it harder for our school to get rid of some people they'd probably like to get rid of. But our union contract has also protected people from having benefits unfairly stripped away, streamlines the process of faculty/administration relations, and can be quite useful. In general I am pretty much always in favor of workers being able to aggregate their power, although I do not necessarily (especially in not for profit/public enterprises) think that unions need to adopt an adversarial relationship with management a priori.
I'm likely going to be our next union president, so we'll see how it goes
Don't trade your dental plan for a keg of beer.
I was thinking of sending some hired goons to drag you into this thread.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 5:58 pm
by Fuck You Jobu
stip wrote:simple schoolboy wrote:stip wrote:surfndestroy wrote:I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.
I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.
I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.
How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?
Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART
yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?
The workers of the CTA are being exploited. I mean how cheap are the taxpayers not to pay for this?
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 6:40 pm
by McParadigm
Yeah, that shit never happens in the private sector, guys!
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 7:54 pm
by Electromatic
Fuck You Jobu wrote:stip wrote:simple schoolboy wrote:stip wrote:surfndestroy wrote:I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.
I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.
I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.
How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?
Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART
yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?
The workers of the CTA are being exploited. I mean how cheap are the taxpayers not to pay for this?
Pretty sure that is a Securitas jacket, private security.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 8:02 pm
by Fuck You Jobu
McParadigm wrote:Yeah, that shit never happens in the private sector, guys!
Yep and they lose their jobs.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 8:02 pm
by Fuck You Jobu
Electromatic wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:stip wrote:simple schoolboy wrote:stip wrote:surfndestroy wrote:I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.
I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.
I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.
How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?
Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART
yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?
The workers of the CTA are being exploited. I mean how cheap are the taxpayers not to pay for this?
Pretty sure that is a Securitas jacket, private security.
It's not.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 8:26 pm
by Electromatic
Fuck You Jobu wrote:Electromatic wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:stip wrote:simple schoolboy wrote:stip wrote:surfndestroy wrote:I thought that was a pretty disjointed rant and article.
I am 100% against unions in the public sector. Government generally has a monopoly on services, so a union strike deprives citizen of their sole source of that good or service. This pretty much takes away the government's ability to lock them out as well. Citizens have absolutely no option to turn to alternate providers, which is a mechanism that tends to provide quality and value. Both are sorely missed in public sector unions.
I don't care that much about unions one way or another in the private sector other than I refuse to work for one. I think it is wrong that unionizing is pretty much a lifetime contract for that union, regardless of their performance standards. I think at the end of the contract that companies should be 100% free to hire outside the union, subcontract or go with a different union.
How do public sector workers protect their rights without collective bargaining?
Having a contractual monopoly on labor, perchance? Or, maybe make it impossible to replace them during labor disputes. See:BART
yes. my question is how do workers protect themselves and their interests without a union?
The workers of the CTA are being exploited. I mean how cheap are the taxpayers not to pay for this?
Pretty sure that is a Securitas jacket, private security.
It's not.
Ah, ok. Just looked like it to me.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Thu October 03, 2013 8:28 pm
by McParadigm
Fuck You Jobu wrote:McParadigm wrote:Yeah, that shit never happens in the private sector, guys!
Yep and they lose their jobs.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 5:40 am
by Soma.
Yeah really. Not sure if serious. Hope not serious.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 9:55 am
by stip
Fuck You Jobu wrote:McParadigm wrote:Yeah, that shit never happens in the private sector, guys!
Yep and they lose their jobs.
lets do an informal survey of how many people who post on Red Mosquito have been fired for doing so.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 10:54 am
by stip
My friends, let me tell you about the magical mystical land of Markets, and the wise, noble, and just kingdom called the Private Sector.
In the kingdom of Private Sector fairness reigns supreme. Everyone has an equal opportunity to be whoever they want to be, and they are valued and rewarded in exact proportion to their contributions to society. No one is ever alienated, exploited or oppressed, because the good King Capitalism won't allow it. Instead everyone is allowed to achieve exactly what they are capable of achieving. No more. No less. Everything is earned. No one ever accrues benefits or advantages because they control access to work, or because they have managed to ensure that the rules of the game benefit them. This notion is laughable in the land of Markets. In the land of Markets, in the kingdom of Private Sector, under the rule of Capitalism, everyone cooperates with each other for the good of the kingdom rather than themselves. Even when you do only care about yourself, through the magic of King Capitalism's powerful sorcery you still manage to benefit everyone.
True, some people struggle a bit, but only the lazy, the pointless, the shiftless, the stupid, and, apparently, the sleepy. Everyone else gets precisely what they deserve, for the kingdom of Private Sector is a land of perfect justice. And there are times some citizens of Private Sector may find themselves struggling because work is scarce, or pay is insufficient, but fret not. They deserve it. The fault lies with them, and the kingdom of Private Sector is under no obligation to address their concerns because they deserve it. Usually such wastrels and miscreants are just exiled from the kingdom. This is only right and fair. In fact, the world is so fair that even though there is an aristocracy, they treat their laborers and serfs as equals, and would never dream of using their power to exploit their labor.
But, my friends, the perfect justice of the Kingdom of Private Sector is under a dire threat from the evil overlord UNION. You see, Union is a temptress, and convinces workers that Private Sector may not always be fair, and that sometimes the aristocracy uses its power and influence to take advantage of workers. We know this isn't true. Everything in the land of Markets is fair and just, after all. The best of all possible worlds. Still, Union spreads lies, its foul taint corrupting everything it touches. But it's not just that Union spreads doubts about the justness of markets. It convinces workers that they should negotiate their contracts together, and if they don't like their contracts they should stop working until they get a better one. And somehow, massive economic concerns that enjoy their size and power because they aggregate their power, are rendered powerless by workers engaging in the same process of aggregation. Now workers are exploiting the kingdom of Private Sector. Now it is impossible for the rulers of Private Sector to govern justly, and fairly. And if this terrible scourge, this great dragon Union, is not somehow stopped so the good rulers of Private Sector, in all their wisdom, are allowed to determine unilaterally precisely what the conditions are under which people are allowed to work, who is allowed to work, and how they are compensated...well then I fear for the future of Private Sector.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 2:05 pm
by ---
hilarious thread
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 4:41 pm
by Green Habit
--- wrote:hilarious thread
I'd like to hear your take on unions, friend.
Re: Thread on Unions....
Posted: Sat October 05, 2013 9:06 pm
by @SkitchP
Green Habit wrote:--- wrote:hilarious thread
I'd like to hear your take on unions, friend.
- Spoiler: show
