TV: Making a Murderer (Netflix)

[hlniv]

Could've easily killed her at a different location, then hauled her back to their property. Then there's very little evidence to get rid of.

OK. Sounds plausible. So, where's the evidence for that theory? The bullet in the garage? The car key? The blood stains? That's still some pretty big leaps. No one saw him leave and come back? Why the fuck would he come back?

[VinylGuy]

The lack of real evidence is astonishing. Not only for Steve, but for Brendan too.

[Simple Torture]

Could've easily killed her at a different location, then hauled her back to their property. Then there's very little evidence to get rid of.

OK. Sounds plausible. So, where's the evidence for that theory? The bullet in the garage? The car key? The blood stains? That's still some pretty big leaps. No one saw him leave and come back? Why the fuck would he come back?

There's no evidence for it because the police didn't look for it--there are about 500 different ways he could've committed the crime, but for some reason the police went with the wild "he shot her in the garage" theory (and that was only because they realized they couldn't use the tied-up-and-raped theory).

[Jorge]

Based on what?

It's still very interesting to me that people see the obvious incompetence and corruption and translate it to: without a doubt they were innocent.

Well for Avery there is a lot to consider, i would think the lack of evidence in the trailer and garage first of all. Brendan's dna wasnt even found in those places.

Why would you think they did it? Because they were white trash?

I'm not saying they did it I'm saying if you take a firm position either way its coming from your own bias. There's certainly no hard evidence such as the DNA from the rape that exonerated him the first time around.

I think you're absolutely right when it comes to Avery but there's very little question in my mind that Brendan had nothing to do with it. His story is the biggest bummer of all. Well, and Teresa's.

[hlniv]

Could've easily killed her at a different location, then hauled her back to their property. Then there's very little evidence to get rid of.

OK. Sounds plausible. So, where's the evidence for that theory? The bullet in the garage? The car key? The blood stains? That's still some pretty big leaps. No one saw him leave and come back? Why the fuck would he come back?

There's no evidence for it because the police didn't look for it--there are about 500 different ways he could've committed the crime, but for some reason the police went with the wild "he shot her in the garage" theory (and that was only because they realized they couldn't use the tied-up-and-raped theory).

So, you're saying the cops were so convinced that he did it, that they only looked for (or planted) evidence that confirmed their theory (theories) on how he did it?

And why, again, is it so convincing that he did it?

Is it OK for a police department to position (or provide) evidence that they need to back up a theory as to how the crime was committed, without actually proving how the crime was committed?

[LoathedVermin72]

My wife just texted me, "I only have 3 episodes left of making a murderer and I feel like I've wasted my life."

[Simple Torture]

So, you're saying the cops were so convinced that he did it, that they only looked for (or planted) evidence that confirmed their theory (theories) on how he did it?

That sounds about right. They've got that recording of one cop asking another if they've got Avery in custody before they even found the remains, so it's obvious that they thought it was him before they had collected much evidence. From there, they've got a confirmation bias to squeezing and shifting--or downright manipulating--evidence to fit their ideas.

And why, again, is it so convincing that he did it?

See below (as I started writing that first), but I'm not really convinced that he did it, but I just can't shake the circumstantial evidence.

Is it OK for a police department to position (or provide) evidence that they need to back up a theory as to how the crime was committed, without actually proving how the crime was committed?

Yeah, I don't think I've ever said anything close to that. I've held since the first page of this thread that most of these trials--especially Dassey's trial, but Avery's too--was a travesty in the way they was conducted. If the evidence presented in the documentary was the evidence presented at trial--and, of course, that's a big "if," as we know from the many articles posted since it's premiere--and I was on the jury, I probably would've voted "not guilty"--but, as we know, that's not the same as "innocent." The state didn't put together a convincing case (again, based on what's seen in the doc), and it sure seems like that's a combination of prosecutorial fumbling and splotchy police work. Then there are the unforgivable, unethical, and basically evil parts of the case, including the Dassey "confession" and the press conferences tying Avery to that shit to poison the jury pool. There's a lot to be outraged about here (without even mentioning the fact that Dassey couldn't get a new trials with lawyers who weren't trying to get him to confess), but as Mecca was hinting at above, you can be outraged at the course of the trial and still have an uneasy feeling due to the circumstantial evidence surrounding Avery's involvement.

[verb_to_trust]

Pretty much spot on

[Rangi Guy]

Wondered how long it'd be before a West Memphis Three comparison was made.....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/76 ... he-thought

[Simple Torture]

Wondered how long it'd be before a West Memphis Three comparison was made.....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/76 ... he-thought

I think it was weeks ago? I'm pretty sure one of the WM3 made a statement right after the new year.

[Simple Torture]

Wondered how long it'd be before a West Memphis Three comparison was made.....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/76 ... he-thought

I think it was weeks ago? I'm pretty sure one of the WM3 made a statement right after the new year.

Here it is: http://www.avclub.com/article/west-memp ... der-230505

[Strat]

I think its also kind of hilarious that his ex wife/ex girlfriend (blanking on the name) is now coming forward and changing her story once again and now saying he is definitely guilty. She remembers phone conversations differently now. Various other folks coming forward and trying to get a cut of their fame pie.

These are all super low income half inbred country folk just eating up their time in the spotlight.

[philpritchard]

Yeah, I don't think I've ever said anything close to that. I've held since the first page of this thread that most of these trials--especially Dassey's trial, but Avery's too--was a travesty in the way they was conducted. If the evidence presented in the documentary was the evidence presented at trial--and, of course, that's a big "if," as we know from the many articles posted since it's premiere--and I was on the jury, I probably would've voted "not guilty"--but, as we know, that's not the same as "innocent." The state didn't put together a convincing case (again, based on what's seen in the doc), and it sure seems like that's a combination of prosecutorial fumbling and splotchy police work. Then there are the unforgivable, unethical, and basically evil parts of the case, including the Dassey "confession" and the press conferences tying Avery to that shit to poison the jury pool. There's a lot to be outraged about here (without even mentioning the fact that Dassey couldn't get a new trials with lawyers who weren't trying to get him to confess), but as Mecca was hinting at above, you can be outraged at the course of the trial and still have an uneasy feeling due to the circumstantial evidence surrounding Avery's involvement.

Yes to everything here.

The Dassey situation was the most painful thing to watch, start to finish. They essentially made up a story for what happened (with no evidence whatsoever to back it up), coerced Dassey into repeating their story, and then used that to convict both Avery and Dassey. That's pretty disgusting.

The two most heartbreaking parts were when he "admitted" to the crime and then tried to make sure he could get back to school in time because he had a project due, then when he was in prison and complained that he was going to miss Wrestlemania. He was clearly manipulated every step of the way, and I don't see how anyone could think he had anything to do with whatever happened.

[epilogue]

its not an innocent or guilty thing people should focus on; did the conviction make sense is the question it asks. I don't think anyone could look at the information and tainted sources of evidence and reasonably feel it was right to convict the guy for murder

See Mecca gets it.

[Bammer]

Final episode ... showed an email that the O'Kelley guy had sent ... man that guy nailed it, and I'm paraphrasing here:

"The Avery family tree has a single branch."

He talks about incest and whatnot. Find me one member of that family who doesn't fit the description. Even the people who married into the family! (Who were likely cousins anyway)

That much I know for sure. What I don't know is whether Steve or Brendan is guilty. I'm leaning toward not guilty.

Also raise your hand if you're surprised that Ken Kratz is a substance abusing sex addict. That guy probably has so many fucked up skeletons in his closet, easily the creepiest person in the whole thing.

[Strat]

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/This ... vCHMsQh.01

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on October 31, Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call-in" instead of "radio-in" the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4 two days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically keep quiet about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo road on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated -- everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right. Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom. He must have been like WTF?!

A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder: "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN." We will see Scott, we will see........."

This is probably the most credible theory I have come across so far. Notice how the events here not only make logical sense, but they also line up with how many of the parties involved behaved during the documentary. For example, how Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas seemed like they knew more about what happened than they were leading on. As well as Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey's bizarre hostility towards Steven Avery.

I can't see another theory topping this one.


Read more at http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/This ... dmuVmML.99

[Strat]

lol

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/making-murdere ... 10948.html

[philpritchard]

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/This ... vCHMsQh.01

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on October 31, Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call-in" instead of "radio-in" the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4 two days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.

This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically keep quiet about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo road on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme.

By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated -- everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right. Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom. He must have been like WTF?!

A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder: "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN." We will see Scott, we will see........."

This is probably the most credible theory I have come across so far. Notice how the events here not only make logical sense, but they also line up with how many of the parties involved behaved during the documentary. For example, how Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas seemed like they knew more about what happened than they were leading on. As well as Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey's bizarre hostility towards Steven Avery.

I can't see another theory topping this one.


Read more at http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/1244/This ... dmuVmML.99

That's a much more extensive, well-thought out version of what I would have kind of guessed happened.

[verb_to_trust]

A lot of people graduated from university of Netflix law school after all this has taken off. It's cute.

[philpritchard]

A lot of people graduated from university of Netflix law school after all this has taken off. It's cute.

Go on...