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Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 7:09 pm
by philpritchard
MattA75 wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:BigRedLedbetter wrote:MattA75 wrote:
And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...
Seriously? Interested to hear your argument.
I just think he was very good for a long period of time, and while that's commendable, it doesn't make someone a hall of famer...I'll get loads of crap for saying this but whatever...Craig Biggio was essentially a better version of Dustin Pedroia...hit a lot of doubles, could hit with some power (he amazingly had his two best HR years at age 38 and 39, imagine that!), was a good to great defender, could steal bases (obviously he was a better/faster baserunner than Pedroia), and was a solid hitter...nothing wrong with any of that but to me, he's just not a hall of famer...
Considering Dustin Pedroia is probably on a Hall of Fame track right now (or, at least, he's on track to be a legitimate candidate)... I don't think that comparison takes anything away from Biggio.
If he keeps trending downwards like he has for the last 3 seasons he won't be.
even if he recovers and goes on to have another 9 or 10 similar seasons to Biggio, I still wouldn't consider him a hall of famer...and Pedroia has 2 WS rings and an MVP on his side too...
Are you in favour of a small hall, or do you just have issues with that particular players?
If Pedroia has the same value as Biggio from his age 31-40 seasons, he will end his career with about 72 fWAR. That would put him tied with Rod Carew as the 7th most valuable 2B of all time. It would put him about 1 fWAR behind Jeter.
I don't expect that to happen because Biggio had an absolutely ridiculous 15.8 fWAR in his age 31-32 seasons, but still...
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 7:11 pm
by Charlie
MattA75 wrote:BigRedLedbetter wrote:MattA75 wrote:
And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...
Seriously? Interested to hear your argument.
I just think he was very good for a long period of time, and while that's commendable, it doesn't make someone a hall of famer...I'll get loads of crap for saying this but whatever...Craig Biggio was essentially a better version of Dustin Pedroia...hit a lot of doubles, could hit with some power (
he amazingly had his two best HR years at age 38 and 39, imagine that!), was a good to great defender, could steal bases (obviously he was a better/faster baserunner than Pedroia), and was a solid hitter...nothing wrong with any of that but to me, he's just not a hall of famer...
by a few homers vs his other seasons. you make it sound like he suddenly started to hit 50 bombs a season, lol. probably a product of playing his home games at Minute Maid Park later in his career, vs the Astrodome during his prime. of his 71 homers between 2004 - 2006, 47 of them came at home.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 7:14 pm
by Norah
MattA75 wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:BigRedLedbetter wrote:MattA75 wrote:
And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...
Seriously? Interested to hear your argument.
I just think he was very good for a long period of time, and while that's commendable, it doesn't make someone a hall of famer...I'll get loads of crap for saying this but whatever...Craig Biggio was essentially a better version of Dustin Pedroia...hit a lot of doubles, could hit with some power (he amazingly had his two best HR years at age 38 and 39, imagine that!), was a good to great defender, could steal bases (obviously he was a better/faster baserunner than Pedroia), and was a solid hitter...nothing wrong with any of that but to me, he's just not a hall of famer...
Considering Dustin Pedroia is probably on a Hall of Fame track right now (or, at least, he's on track to be a legitimate candidate)... I don't think that comparison takes anything away from Biggio.
If he keeps trending downwards like he has for the last 3 seasons he won't be.
even if he recovers and goes on to have another 9 or 10 similar seasons to Biggio, I still wouldn't consider him a hall of famer...and Pedroia has 2 WS rings and an MVP on his side too...
I'm with you on this one.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 8:30 pm
by Coach
cutuphalfdead wrote:Coach wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:Boomer Esiason during one of those "cbs sports radio minutes" made a pretty compelling case for Don Mattingly, which now has me second guessing his status. I guess he's out for good now unless the Veterans Committee steps up.
Trammel was HUGE when I was a kid. Don't know enough about his stats/intangibles, but in the kids baseball card trading world, we all coveted his cards.
What was his argument?
It was something along the lines of a super low amount of strikeouts and a period of time (can't remember how many years) where Mattingly dominated in hits, RBIs, home runs, and batting average.
Again, I'm not going to die on a hill making a case for a Yankee
Led the league in hits twice, RBI once, BA once, 2B thrice, all over a three year period. He'd be a great addition to the Hall of Pretty Good.
As Boomer said on the radio...perhaps the best Yankee to never win a WS or get into the Hall.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 8:45 pm
by Fuck You Jobu
Coach wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:Coach wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:Boomer Esiason during one of those "cbs sports radio minutes" made a pretty compelling case for Don Mattingly, which now has me second guessing his status. I guess he's out for good now unless the Veterans Committee steps up.
Trammel was HUGE when I was a kid. Don't know enough about his stats/intangibles, but in the kids baseball card trading world, we all coveted his cards.
What was his argument?
It was something along the lines of a super low amount of strikeouts and a period of time (can't remember how many years) where Mattingly dominated in hits, RBIs, home runs, and batting average.
Again, I'm not going to die on a hill making a case for a Yankee
Led the league in hits twice, RBI once, BA once, 2B thrice, all over a three year period. He'd be a great addition to the Hall of Pretty Good.
As Boomer said on the radio...perhaps the best Yankee to never win a WS or get into the Hall.
So because he's a Yankee, he should get special consideration? Like they aren't already represented enough in the HOF, ESPN, .....
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 8:48 pm
by MattA75
philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:BigRedLedbetter wrote:MattA75 wrote:
And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...
Seriously? Interested to hear your argument.
I just think he was very good for a long period of time, and while that's commendable, it doesn't make someone a hall of famer...I'll get loads of crap for saying this but whatever...Craig Biggio was essentially a better version of Dustin Pedroia...hit a lot of doubles, could hit with some power (he amazingly had his two best HR years at age 38 and 39, imagine that!), was a good to great defender, could steal bases (obviously he was a better/faster baserunner than Pedroia), and was a solid hitter...nothing wrong with any of that but to me, he's just not a hall of famer...
Considering Dustin Pedroia is probably on a Hall of Fame track right now (or, at least, he's on track to be a legitimate candidate)... I don't think that comparison takes anything away from Biggio.
If he keeps trending downwards like he has for the last 3 seasons he won't be.
even if he recovers and goes on to have another 9 or 10 similar seasons to Biggio, I still wouldn't consider him a hall of famer...and Pedroia has 2 WS rings and an MVP on his side too...
Are you in favour of a small hall, or do you just have issues with that particular players?
If Pedroia has the same value as Biggio from his age 31-40 seasons, he will end his career with about 72 fWAR. That would put him tied with Rod Carew as the 7th most valuable 2B of all time. It would put him about 1 fWAR behind Jeter.
I don't expect that to happen because Biggio had an absolutely ridiculous 15.8 fWAR in his age 31-32 seasons, but still...
little bit of both...I'm also slightly no on Schilling and Piazza...and with Biggio in, I now definitely feel Tim Raines has gotten screwed and probably no one has been more screwed than Lou Whitaker
I do think it's funny that a lot of people are in the "I would've said no until I looked at his numbers" category with Biggio...I was in the yes category until I looked at his numbers...fair or not I was expecting a little bit more
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 8:51 pm
by MattA75
Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:Coach wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:Boomer Esiason during one of those "cbs sports radio minutes" made a pretty compelling case for Don Mattingly, which now has me second guessing his status. I guess he's out for good now unless the Veterans Committee steps up.
Trammel was HUGE when I was a kid. Don't know enough about his stats/intangibles, but in the kids baseball card trading world, we all coveted his cards.
What was his argument?
It was something along the lines of a super low amount of strikeouts and a period of time (can't remember how many years) where Mattingly dominated in hits, RBIs, home runs, and batting average.
Again, I'm not going to die on a hill making a case for a Yankee
Led the league in hits twice, RBI once, BA once, 2B thrice, all over a three year period. He'd be a great addition to the Hall of Pretty Good.
As Boomer said on the radio...perhaps the best Yankee to never win a WS or get into the Hall.
So because he's a Yankee, he should get special consideration? Like they aren't already represented enough in the HOF, ESPN, .....
I don't think he was saying that, I think it was simply an observation that in terms of those two criteria, Mattingly is #1...
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 9:03 pm
by Norah
MattA75 wrote:philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:philpritchard wrote:MattA75 wrote:BigRedLedbetter wrote:MattA75 wrote:
And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...
Seriously? Interested to hear your argument.
I just think he was very good for a long period of time, and while that's commendable, it doesn't make someone a hall of famer...I'll get loads of crap for saying this but whatever...Craig Biggio was essentially a better version of Dustin Pedroia...hit a lot of doubles, could hit with some power (he amazingly had his two best HR years at age 38 and 39, imagine that!), was a good to great defender, could steal bases (obviously he was a better/faster baserunner than Pedroia), and was a solid hitter...nothing wrong with any of that but to me, he's just not a hall of famer...
Considering Dustin Pedroia is probably on a Hall of Fame track right now (or, at least, he's on track to be a legitimate candidate)... I don't think that comparison takes anything away from Biggio.
If he keeps trending downwards like he has for the last 3 seasons he won't be.
even if he recovers and goes on to have another 9 or 10 similar seasons to Biggio, I still wouldn't consider him a hall of famer...and Pedroia has 2 WS rings and an MVP on his side too...
Are you in favour of a small hall, or do you just have issues with that particular players?
If Pedroia has the same value as Biggio from his age 31-40 seasons, he will end his career with about 72 fWAR. That would put him tied with Rod Carew as the 7th most valuable 2B of all time. It would put him about 1 fWAR behind Jeter.
I don't expect that to happen because Biggio had an absolutely ridiculous 15.8 fWAR in his age 31-32 seasons, but still...
little bit of both...I'm also slightly no on Schilling and Piazza...and with Biggio in, I now definitely feel Tim Raines has gotten screwed and probably no one has been more screwed than Lou Whitaker
I do think it's funny that a lot of people are in the "I would've said no until I looked at his numbers" category with Biggio...I was in the yes category until I looked at his numbers...fair or not I was expecting a little bit more
No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 9:15 pm
by @SkitchP
MattA75 wrote:
little bit of both...I'm also slightly no on Schilling and Piazza...and with Biggio in, I now definitely feel Tim Raines has gotten screwed and probably no one has been more screwed than Lou Whitaker
I do think it's funny that a lot of people are in the "I would've said no until I looked at his numbers" category with Biggio...I was in the yes category until I looked at his numbers...fair or not I was expecting a little bit more
True story, I have remembered this post for years. Honestly, it's the post I most associate with you as a poster.
MattA751 on January 6th 2011 wrote:
Skitch, I'll say this much...at least Trammell I can understand the case for, even if I don't buy it
Whitaker has no case, ZERO
http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewto ... 2#p3254928
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 9:29 pm
by MattA75
@SkitchP wrote:MattA75 wrote:
little bit of both...I'm also slightly no on Schilling and Piazza...and with Biggio in, I now definitely feel Tim Raines has gotten screwed and probably no one has been more screwed than Lou Whitaker
I do think it's funny that a lot of people are in the "I would've said no until I looked at his numbers" category with Biggio...I was in the yes category until I looked at his numbers...fair or not I was expecting a little bit more
True story, I have remembered this post for years. Honestly, it's the post I most associate with you as a poster.
MattA751 on January 6th 2011 wrote:
Skitch, I'll say this much...at least Trammell I can understand the case for, even if I don't buy it
Whitaker has no case, ZERO
http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewto ... 2#p3254928
Hahaha, I've come around on both Whitaker and Trammell...both of them benefitted from the same thing that hurt Biggio...I looked closer at the numbers and was surprised
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 9:46 pm
by philpritchard
cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.
Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.
Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 10:02 pm
by MattA75
philpritchard wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.
Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.
Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.
Buster Posey is a much much better defensive catcher than Mike Piazza, Piazza was BAD BAD BAD
But I'll relent on Piazza if it means people will start voting for Edgar Martinez
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 10:04 pm
by Coach
MattA75 wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:Coach wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:Boomer Esiason during one of those "cbs sports radio minutes" made a pretty compelling case for Don Mattingly, which now has me second guessing his status. I guess he's out for good now unless the Veterans Committee steps up.
Trammel was HUGE when I was a kid. Don't know enough about his stats/intangibles, but in the kids baseball card trading world, we all coveted his cards.
What was his argument?
It was something along the lines of a super low amount of strikeouts and a period of time (can't remember how many years) where Mattingly dominated in hits, RBIs, home runs, and batting average.
Again, I'm not going to die on a hill making a case for a Yankee
Led the league in hits twice, RBI once, BA once, 2B thrice, all over a three year period. He'd be a great addition to the Hall of Pretty Good.
As Boomer said on the radio...perhaps the best Yankee to never win a WS or get into the Hall.
So because he's a Yankee, he should get special consideration? Like they aren't already represented enough in the HOF, ESPN, .....
I don't think he was saying that, I think it was simply an observation that in terms of those two criteria, Mattingly is #1...
Exactly.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 10:10 pm
by Fuck You Jobu
MattA75 wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:Coach wrote:Fuck You Jobu wrote:Coach wrote:Boomer Esiason during one of those "cbs sports radio minutes" made a pretty compelling case for Don Mattingly, which now has me second guessing his status. I guess he's out for good now unless the Veterans Committee steps up.
Trammel was HUGE when I was a kid. Don't know enough about his stats/intangibles, but in the kids baseball card trading world, we all coveted his cards.
What was his argument?
It was something along the lines of a super low amount of strikeouts and a period of time (can't remember how many years) where Mattingly dominated in hits, RBIs, home runs, and batting average.
Again, I'm not going to die on a hill making a case for a Yankee
Led the league in hits twice, RBI once, BA once, 2B thrice, all over a three year period. He'd be a great addition to the Hall of Pretty Good.
As Boomer said on the radio...perhaps the best Yankee to never win a WS or get into the Hall.
So because he's a Yankee, he should get special consideration? Like they aren't already represented enough in the HOF, ESPN, .....
I don't think he was saying that, I think it was simply an observation that in terms of those two criteria, Mattingly is #1...
You sure? Earlier in the quote he said Esiason made a pretty compelling case and then Matt brought it up again - "As Boomer said." Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 10:14 pm
by philpritchard
MattA75 wrote:philpritchard wrote:cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.
Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.
Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.
Buster Posey is a much much better defensive catcher than Mike Piazza, Piazza was BAD BAD BAD
But I'll relent on Piazza if it means people will start voting for Edgar Martinez
Oh I know, but despite that bad defense, he still finds himself sixth all time in catcher fWAR, with fewer plate appearances than everyone ahead of him. That's how good he was offensively. Like I said, his career offensive output it like Buster Posey's prime stretched out for 15 years. That's just ridiculous.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Fri January 09, 2015 11:58 pm
by numbers
Biggio went into a bandbox stadium towards the end of his career. I honestly don't remember how much of a hitters park the astrodome was, but I don't think it was like Minute Maid.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Sat January 10, 2015 12:05 am
by @SkitchP
Guys. We really need to talk more about Lou Whitaker.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Sat January 10, 2015 12:14 am
by numbers
Um, for the first time ever, Phil and I agree on something baseball related, let's stick with that.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Sat January 10, 2015 12:50 am
by BigRedLedbetter
Nothing against Mattingly at all. Putting my Yankee hate aside I loved the dude as a player but I just don't see him as a hall of famer. Not even if he has a ring. He was one of the best for like a 6 year span but not a hall of famer. If he is guys like Will Clark and Mark Grace (and I love Grace!) need to be considered too and those two are not hall of famers.
Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the hall way over any of the names mentioned here.
Re: Will he be a Hall of Famer?
Posted: Sat January 10, 2015 12:53 am
by @SkitchP
BigRedLedbetter wrote:
Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the hall way over any of the names mentioned here.
Except Trammell, Whitaker and Raines