Red Mosquito

EJ wrote:10 yrs ago they would've foregone the whole syrupy chorus section.

That's why they wrote "Hearts and thoughts they fade..." and "I just wanna scream... HELLOOOOOO!"

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:which part of MYM do you call the chorus?

'Self-realised and metaphysically redeemed...' is the chorus as it appears twice (I think).

so whats the other part of the song people thought was the chorus at first? pre-chorus?

harmless wrote:

EJ wrote:10 yrs ago they would've foregone the whole syrupy chorus section.

That's why they wrote "Hearts and thoughts they fade..." and "I just wanna scream... HELLOOOOOO!"

warehouse wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:which part of MYM do you call the chorus?

'Self-realised and metaphysically redeemed...' is the chorus as it appears twice (I think).

so whats the other part of the song people thought was the chorus at first? pre-chorus?

The mind your manners bit, with the pause? Pre-chorus I guess, or just the end of the verses. The fact that you can't really tell and it's all somewhat subjective is probably Brendan's fault.

harmless wrote:

warehouse wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:which part of MYM do you call the chorus?

'Self-realised and metaphysically redeemed...' is the chorus as it appears twice (I think).

so whats the other part of the song people thought was the chorus at first? pre-chorus?

The mind your manners bit, with the pause? Pre-chorus I guess, or just the end off the verses. The fact that you can't really tell and it's all somewhat subjective is probably Brendan's fault.

yeah thats it. i think when it was first released people were calling that the chorus and the "self realized...." part the bridge(s).

i kinda thought it was mike's doing. he's the metal head of the band and likes those long, complicated songs.

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:Lyrics, melody, the overabundance of syrup, etc. I don't know if it's easy to pick out exactly what's wrong with it and define it. I just don't think the elements that are there just don't really add up to something particularly compelling.

I don't think it's worse than Parachutes in terms of Syrup. Hell, I don't even think it's worse than Thin Air in terms of syrup. This band aren't strangers to cheesy sentimental songs.

Well, I think you just named two very good songs. Syrup isn't a particularly bad thing on it's own; it's all about the context of the quality of the song.

That's why in general I don't really think the pulling back old material, saying "see, they used to do it then, also!" is very fruitful. Something that may send a song straight into the ditch may work perfectly on another. It just depends what the rest of the song is doing.

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:Lyrics, melody, the overabundance of syrup, etc. I don't know if it's easy to pick out exactly what's wrong with it and define it. I just don't think the elements that are there just don't really add up to something particularly compelling.

I don't think it's worse than Parachutes in terms of Syrup. Hell, I don't even think it's worse than Thin Air in terms of syrup. This band aren't strangers to cheesy sentimental songs.

Well, I think you just named two very good songs. Syrup isn't a particularly bad thing on it's own; it's all about the context of the quality of the song.

That's why in general I don't really think the pulling back old material, saying "she, they used to do it then, also!" is very fruitful. Something that may send a song straight into the ditch may work perfectly on another. It just depends what the rest of the song is doing.

this is true.

I think we shouldn't over-extend what should be laid at O'Brien's feet. It's Pearl Jam's song; the producer can give advice or his take but it's up to PJ on whether or not to accept or reject that advice.

I don't think there's a big problem with Manners' arrangement, personally; it does a fair amount and goes to some interesting places for such a quick-hit kind of song.

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:Lyrics, melody, the overabundance of syrup, etc. I don't know if it's easy to pick out exactly what's wrong with it and define it. I just don't think the elements that are there just don't really add up to something particularly compelling.

I don't think it's worse than Parachutes in terms of Syrup. Hell, I don't even think it's worse than Thin Air in terms of syrup. This band aren't strangers to cheesy sentimental songs.

Well, I think you just named two very good songs. Syrup isn't a particularly bad thing on it's own; it's all about the context of the quality of the song.

That's why in general I don't really think the pulling back old material, saying "she, they used to do it then, also!" is very fruitful. Something that may send a song straight into the ditch may work perfectly on another. It just depends what the rest of the song is doing.

Of course it's fruitful; why not? Sure, something that doesn't work in one song might work well in another, but if your reason for disliking ;Just Breathe' is just that it's cheesy, it's not much of a justification. That's all I'm sayin'. There may be other reasons you don't like it, but cheese is probably not one of them, or at least, you're failing to remember how cheesy some people have always found Pearl Jam.

If anything, the reason why some people can't compare most of Backspacer to older songs is probably production. Backspacer sounds slick, shiny and over-produced. That's really the only thing making the songs incomparable. If you can look past that, it becomes easier to compare each song to its counterpart on earlier albums.

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:Lyrics, melody, the overabundance of syrup, etc. I don't know if it's easy to pick out exactly what's wrong with it and define it. I just don't think the elements that are there just don't really add up to something particularly compelling.

I don't think it's worse than Parachutes in terms of Syrup. Hell, I don't even think it's worse than Thin Air in terms of syrup. This band aren't strangers to cheesy sentimental songs.

Well, I think you just named two very good songs. Syrup isn't a particularly bad thing on it's own; it's all about the context of the quality of the song.

That's why in general I don't really think the pulling back old material, saying "see, they used to do it then, also!" is very fruitful. Something that may send a song straight into the ditch may work perfectly on another. It just depends what the rest of the song is doing.

I find the lyrics, Melody and the "syrup" that is there (I don't find it overabundant for what the song is doing) all enjoyable. I find it to be a very sensitive and sincere song and all of the things you point out that are "wrong' with it help convey the emotion that I feel from it.
I really enjoy the arrangement Willie Nelson put together with JB.

harmless wrote:If anything, the reason why some people can't compare most of Backspacer to older songs is probably production. Backspacer sounds slick, shiny and over-produced. That's really the only thing making the songs incomparable. If you can look past that, it becomes easier to compare each song to its counterpart on earlier albums.

I feel like people don't have much trouble comparing Backspacer to older stuff. If they did have trouble, Backspacer would probably have had a more positive reaction among some here.

harmless wrote: Of course it's fruitful; why not? Sure, something that doesn't work in one song might work well in another, but if your reason for disliking ;Just Breathe' is just that it's cheesy, it's not much of a justification. That's all I'm sayin'. There may be other reasons you don't like it, but cheese is probably not one of them, or at least, you're failing to remember how cheesy some people have always found Pearl Jam.

I just don't really get the comparison between Elderly Woman and Just Breathe, besides you're saying (I guess?) that they're both cheesy. Like I said in my earlier post, cheese isn't a good or bad thing per se; there are plenty of great sentimental songs and plenty of crappy unsentimental ones. But however it comes together in Just Breathe makes that cheese/syrup/whatever you want to call it a hindrance to it's quality. I don't think I said it was 'cheesy' and left it at that.

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:Lyrics, melody, the overabundance of syrup, etc. I don't know if it's easy to pick out exactly what's wrong with it and define it. I just don't think the elements that are there just don't really add up to something particularly compelling.

I don't think it's worse than Parachutes in terms of Syrup. Hell, I don't even think it's worse than Thin Air in terms of syrup. This band aren't strangers to cheesy sentimental songs.

Well, I think you just named two very good songs. Syrup isn't a particularly bad thing on it's own; it's all about the context of the quality of the song.

That's why in general I don't really think the pulling back old material, saying "she, they used to do it then, also!" is very fruitful. Something that may send a song straight into the ditch may work perfectly on another. It just depends what the rest of the song is doing.

What do you mean by syrup?? Sappy love content??

If so, the syrup in JB is right in your face, like PJ is pouring a bottle of Aunt Jemima over you. "Did I say that I need you? Did I say that I want you? Oh if I didn't I'm a fool... blah blah" You're drowning in it. There's nothing interesting there, and it's pretty pathetic. I picture a whiny boyfriend on his knees begging his girlfriend not to leave him. I'm a fool baby, I love you so much, please don't go!!

Thin Air is more tasteful syrup. It's no less a love song than JB, but it's not pathetic. It just vividly describes the love between 2 people, and has great imagery. Also some interesting lines there like "byzantine is reflected in our pond, there's a cloud but the water remains calm, reaching in the sun's fingers clutch the dawn to pass, even out it's a precious thing to bear." The structuring/timing of the vocals is great here too, good work Stone (or maybe Ed).

Parachutes also has great imagery and is a tasteful love song. I feel like it is a more respectable version of JB, describing vulnerability in love and love's ability to save one's life, but in a more thoughtful and tasteful way. JB's lyrics were likely written for the tasteless larger masses to get them to the shows and move records, as there seems there was barely any thought put into them at all, and no thought is required to fully get what Ed is saying. Thought provoking music and lyrical content is what used to separate PJ from everyone else.

I'm not going to change your mind and that's fine. JB is a very blunt message but that is the point. The song is the narrators way of cutting out all the ambiguity and dancing around and making it clear to the loved on that she knows how he feels. He doesn't want to paint any grand convoluted pictures or have some decipherable poetry for her to flip through.

This song is very thought provoking. Backspacer was the first album release while I've been together with my future wife( this Saturday) an JB conveyed the honest and straightforward emotion that sometimes I have a hard time doing. She felt the same way about the song when she heard it. There is beauty in clarity and that's what I get from it.
It also makes me think of times when I had no one or couldn't say these things to someone I did love.

The song also makes me wonder where the narrator is. Is the relationship failing, healthy or is the message too late. He says how many people he loves but how many love him back?

I'm not delusional. I know this song comes across cheesey but I appreciate it.

Yes, but how great are CC and LIR, huh, HUH? Love them.

Lounge Lizard wrote:Yes, but how great are CC and LIR, huh, HUH? Love them.

Aw huh

Lounge Lizard wrote:Yes, but how great are CC and LIR, huh, HUH? Love them.

No one knows this more than me.

So whos got the entire disc of Avocado Bsides??? Anyone? I know it exists...its a hot topic over at the pit

Thejambi wrote:I'm not going to change your mind and that's fine. JB is a very blunt message but that is the point. The song is the narrators way of cutting out all the ambiguity and dancing around and making it clear to the loved on that she knows how he feels. He doesn't want to paint any grand convoluted pictures or have some decipherable poetry for her to flip through.

This song is very thought provoking. Backspacer was the first album release while I've been together with my future wife( this Saturday) an JB conveyed the honest and straightforward emotion that sometimes I have a hard time doing. She felt the same way about the song when she heard it. There is beauty in clarity and that's what I get from it.
It also makes me think of times when I had no one or couldn't say these things to someone I did love.

The song also makes me wonder where the narrator is. Is the relationship failing, healthy or is the message too late. He says how many people he loves but how many love him back?

I'm not delusional. I know this song comes across cheesey but I appreciate it.

Ahhh, well I can dig that. Congratulations on your marriage