Red Mosquito

stip wrote:SBWM is the better song, but they're also doing pretty different things.

Oh 100%. I think if you strip the individual components out of each song , viewing things on a micro level, as a life-long fan would, DM has incredible component parts. Great individual playing, fantastic group interplay, a collective fire that's been sorely missed. On a macro level, looking at things objectively, if I said to my friends, "Ed's singing with a desperation and righteous indignation I haven't heard since '93", their eyes glaze over. SBWM is deceptively simple though perhaps also more inviting on a surface level.

To us, there are so many indications from DM that this will be a special album, so, that's meaningful enough to me. Like I said, I'll need to see where it sits relative to the other songs.

Strat wrote:The drum into on grievance sounds soooooooo much better than the drum intro to DM and its all on the toms. In my opinion.

I think hearing MC bust into Grievance on Letterman is one of my favorite memories in the band's history.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Aunt_Claire_Foy wrote:

bodysnatcher wrote:

stip wrote:

Jorge wrote:

stip wrote:

Jorge wrote:I asked my friend Cass who is a multiple Grammy Award winning producer what he thought of the drum sound debacle. Specifically I asked if he thinks the drums are real. If you're interested in what a stranger to Pearl Jam who is very studio-knowledgeable has to say, this was his take:

Spoiler: show

ok having a listen

oh god that is a horribleeeee drum sound isn't it

first impressions are that that's the real snare, because it's so honky and ringy - if they were gonna fully replace they'd choose a way better one

One thing about rock drums is that they are like, inSANELY edited, quantized, moved around, crossfaded, leveled, copied around usually. Like I've never seen more editing than on rock/metal sessions... ever

sounds like the fill in the intro snare is copied over or some weird edit is happening there at least

i don't really know pearl jams' normal drum sound but this is very weird

it's like they've tried to go in between garagy noisy grunge and then modern punchy bring me the horizon stuff

and landed in shit territory

I'd blame the mixer more, first haha

so there's an interesting thing nowadays - in order to get that super punchy post paramore like extreme compression kinda radio metal sound, you can't really record cymbals and hats at the same time

cos then you can't compress the snare and toms and room as much as you need, or it's just nuclear

so often for these records they have to separately track hats and cymbals

but that squeezes the life out of a proper like chad smith kinda performance

but yeah, travis barker has popularized this very triggered, super tight, ultra compressed drum sound that sounds fat as hell, and rock and pop

and it makes old rock musicians feel weedy in comparison to the current landscape, so mixers do weird shit like this

tryna get eddie to sound like olivia rodrigo

how many grammy’s? because I wont click on a spoiler for any less than 3

One regular Grammy and one Latin Grammy

better just summarize it for me then

stop asking someone for a summarization of a post might be the highlight of this thread

I wouldn't call it a highlight necessarily. The guy generalizes recording styles saying things like "what people don't realize..." Woah. Insider information!

Every band triggers. Every band quantizes. You lose the live feel when you compress things to homogeneous levels and snap every note or strike neatly into a grid. Someone would also argue that the process of recording is diminishing returns at this point - literally, and figuratively - because music is monetized on tour, not on record, so the investment into a consistent product so it can be played across multiple mediums really doesn't matter. When we hear this song live we will be happy.

I’ll bite:

-“Every” band does not quantize, and there’s a spectrum between subtle and rigid. You can also do things with swing functions that can make quantization feel loose/human.

-“Every” band does not trigger, and again, there’s a spectrum between subtle and heavy handed

Let me rephrase - every legitimate band with a channel to international radio and streaming does these things. And smart quantizing doesn't mean they aren't doing it. The 100-200 engineers working with bands at a level of Pearl Jam's are doing it all day every day.

-It’s silly for PJ to use either, when Matt has a fairly unique drum sound (and a paid drum tech), and an INCREDIBLE feel for the instrument. So I’m totally fine with them fixing some flubbed notes here and there, and for adding some sub harmonic stuff to his kick or even replacing a snare on a track if they felt they got a special take but wanted a different tone. But whatever is going on in DM is beyond the pale.

They've been doing it since they brought Matt on, which also coincided with their transition from tape to digital. Yes, tape was in use on Binaural, but I guarantee a majority of the editing was digital first. Listen to the drums on Breakerfall and God's Dice. I won't even get into NAIS.

-I don’t think price of recording time really applies to a band that has at least three recording studios under ownership by its members (Stone, Jeff, Ed).

It does. They own those studios and make money off of them. Any time they take in those studios offsets revenue otherwise gained by having them available to other artists.

I do hope these songs come to life on tour.

They will.

tragabigzanda wrote:I find it odd that a couple of you would rate this song relative to the new album and not their entire discography. Does that suggest you’re willing to have an overall lower bar of expectation for this album?

I've made no bones of the fact that my bar is lowered over the past 20+ years; but Gigaton raised it again considerably, and this song meets that again, albeit for slightly different reasons

Strat wrote:I have lowered my expectations from pearl jam 33 years into it. Yes.

exactly, this isn’t some big gotcha

Strat wrote:The drum into on grievance sounds soooooooo much better than the drum intro to DM and its all on the toms. In my opinion.

the drums sounded great on Binaural; he was playing higher toms on that intro, but yeah this song still lacks that tonal range

I just listened to this for the third time. I still like it. I'd give it a 3, but it's a warmly felt 3. I hope it's not the best the album has to offer, but it's a good tune.

I agree that the production is really bad. But this isn't a song I'm feeling compelled to play over and over again, and that helps keep things in perspective a little bit.

stip wrote: I am looking forward to that Josh Evans mix.

Wait, I missed something. Is there actually going to be a Josh Evans mix?

Walker Bait wrote:

stip wrote: I am looking forward to that Josh Evans mix.

Wait, I missed something. Is there actually going to be a Josh Evans mix?

Josh Evans & Nick Rives mixed the Dolby Atmos version contained on the deluxe edition

For those who do not like the studio version, you might like the live version better. Assume there will be boots again on this tour.

oneway23 wrote:

Walker Bait wrote:

stip wrote: I am looking forward to that Josh Evans mix.

Wait, I missed something. Is there actually going to be a Josh Evans mix?

Josh Evans & Nick Rives mixed the Dolby Atmos version contained on the deluxe edition

If you don’t have an Atmos system, do you think it sound much different?

wease wrote:

oneway23 wrote:

Walker Bait wrote:

stip wrote: I am looking forward to that Josh Evans mix.

Wait, I missed something. Is there actually going to be a Josh Evans mix?

Josh Evans & Nick Rives mixed the Dolby Atmos version contained on the deluxe edition

If you don’t have an Atmos system, do you think it sound much different?

Atmos mixes all have a bed layer that will be a 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby TrueHD, or Dolby Digital+, but, I'm honestly not sure how that would carry through if your receiver is in stereo. Someone more knowledgable might have more info.

If you're listening in stereo, my recommendation is to subscribe to Apple Music for a month and listen there. It'll be a binaural approximation of the full experience, but, you'll at least receive any potential benefits of the new mix.

oneway23 wrote:

wease wrote:

oneway23 wrote:

Walker Bait wrote:

stip wrote: I am looking forward to that Josh Evans mix.

Wait, I missed something. Is there actually going to be a Josh Evans mix?

Josh Evans & Nick Rives mixed the Dolby Atmos version contained on the deluxe edition

If you don’t have an Atmos system, do you think it sound much different?

Atmos mixes all have a bed layer that will be a 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby TrueHD(lossless) or Dolby Digital+(lossy), but, I'm not sure how that would carry through if your receiver is in stereo. Someone more knowledgable might have more info.

If you're listening in stereo, my recommendation is to subscribe to Apple Music for a month and listen there. It'll be a binaural approximation of the full experience, but, you'll at least receive any potential benefits of the new mix.

Thanks!

wease wrote:Thanks!

Just a quick addendum, if you'll permit the indulgence: Contrary to some information out there, you don't need airpods to use it. Any wired headphone will work. It's merely a matter of flipping a couple of settings in the app.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Aunt_Claire_Foy wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Aunt_Claire_Foy wrote:

bodysnatcher wrote:

stip wrote:

Jorge wrote:

stip wrote:

Jorge wrote:I asked my friend Cass who is a multiple Grammy Award winning producer what he thought of the drum sound debacle. Specifically I asked if he thinks the drums are real. If you're interested in what a stranger to Pearl Jam who is very studio-knowledgeable has to say, this was his take:

Spoiler: show

ok having a listen

oh god that is a horribleeeee drum sound isn't it

first impressions are that that's the real snare, because it's so honky and ringy - if they were gonna fully replace they'd choose a way better one

One thing about rock drums is that they are like, inSANELY edited, quantized, moved around, crossfaded, leveled, copied around usually. Like I've never seen more editing than on rock/metal sessions... ever

sounds like the fill in the intro snare is copied over or some weird edit is happening there at least

i don't really know pearl jams' normal drum sound but this is very weird

it's like they've tried to go in between garagy noisy grunge and then modern punchy bring me the horizon stuff

and landed in shit territory

I'd blame the mixer more, first haha

so there's an interesting thing nowadays - in order to get that super punchy post paramore like extreme compression kinda radio metal sound, you can't really record cymbals and hats at the same time

cos then you can't compress the snare and toms and room as much as you need, or it's just nuclear

so often for these records they have to separately track hats and cymbals

but that squeezes the life out of a proper like chad smith kinda performance

but yeah, travis barker has popularized this very triggered, super tight, ultra compressed drum sound that sounds fat as hell, and rock and pop

and it makes old rock musicians feel weedy in comparison to the current landscape, so mixers do weird shit like this

tryna get eddie to sound like olivia rodrigo

how many grammy’s? because I wont click on a spoiler for any less than 3

One regular Grammy and one Latin Grammy

better just summarize it for me then

stop asking someone for a summarization of a post might be the highlight of this thread

I wouldn't call it a highlight necessarily. The guy generalizes recording styles saying things like "what people don't realize..." Woah. Insider information!

Every band triggers. Every band quantizes. You lose the live feel when you compress things to homogeneous levels and snap every note or strike neatly into a grid. Someone would also argue that the process of recording is diminishing returns at this point - literally, and figuratively - because music is monetized on tour, not on record, so the investment into a consistent product so it can be played across multiple mediums really doesn't matter. When we hear this song live we will be happy.

I’ll bite:

-“Every” band does not quantize, and there’s a spectrum between subtle and rigid. You can also do things with swing functions that can make quantization feel loose/human.

-“Every” band does not trigger, and again, there’s a spectrum between subtle and heavy handed

Let me rephrase - every legitimate band with a channel to international radio and streaming does these things. And smart quantizing doesn't mean they aren't doing it. The 100-200 engineers working with bands at a level of Pearl Jam's are doing it all day every day.

-It’s silly for PJ to use either, when Matt has a fairly unique drum sound (and a paid drum tech), and an INCREDIBLE feel for the instrument. So I’m totally fine with them fixing some flubbed notes here and there, and for adding some sub harmonic stuff to his kick or even replacing a snare on a track if they felt they got a special take but wanted a different tone. But whatever is going on in DM is beyond the pale.

They've been doing it since they brought Matt on, which also coincided with their transition from tape to digital. Yes, tape was in use on Binaural, but I guarantee a majority of the editing was digital first. Listen to the drums on Breakerfall and God's Dice. I won't even get into NAIS.

-I don’t think price of recording time really applies to a band that has at least three recording studios under ownership by its members (Stone, Jeff, Ed).

It does. They own those studios and make money off of them. Any time they take in those studios offsets revenue otherwise gained by having them available to other artists.

I do hope these songs come to life on tour.

They will.

No argument on most of this, except the studio revenues angle: I’m not sure Studio Litho has needed to be cash positive for a long time now, and neither Jeff’s nor Ed’s studios have ever operated as income-generating businesses. These are all essentially hobby studios with professional gear and small stable of engineers who will show up when needed. I’d assume every single asset is owned free and clear.

The Pearl Jam EBITDA structure notwithstanding, studio time costs money no matter what. You can pay cash for that time up front or stick a lien on your tour, but essentially they have to pay a lot of people to keep the Pearl Jam business running, and I would assume that - cash positive or not - their owned studios (and record label for that matter) would need some sort of balance on hand.

BUT WE DIGRESS.

The drum sound, to me, has been modernized to slot in next to the bands Pearl Jam influenced getting far more radio play than them. Also if you've ever heard Pearl Jam's SiriusXM channel, you'll know that compression may as well be other band member at this point.

Kevin Davis wrote:I just listened to this for the third time. I still like it. I'd give it a 3, but it's a warmly felt 3. I hope it's not the best the album has to offer, but it's a good tune.

I agree that the production is really bad. But this isn't a song I'm feeling compelled to play over and over again, and that helps keep things in perspective a little bit.

I'm finding it impossible to evict the ear worm that is the bridge in DM from my head.
This one is one stubborn 'tenant', as Ed once put in an old interview.

"no patience left for
impatience no more,
no sorrow for
the unaccountable..."

PJ proving they still write a good bridge

Although I would replace "sorrow" with "empathy" for the syllable count's sake.

"No empathy for
The unaccountable"

I personally dislike it when words are being dragged out to fit the rhythm of a verse

tragabigzanda wrote:I actually think the bridge is the best part of the song (after the little bass riff butt stuff around 1:34)

My favorite part of the song comes right after the first chorus.
That reverb effect is *French kiss*