Red Mosquito

super nintendo chalmers wrote:

ItsOkay wrote:

harmless wrote:Wait, why #&@^!#?

He's the source of CC and LIR.

Message received!

southp wrote: Overall I don't see the Backspacer songwriting as unfinished at all.

I don't either, really. Structurally, though, "Cold Confession" and "Unthought Known" are reasonable parallels--basically, a single verse pattern sustained through the duration of the song. There's nothing wrong with that--that's pretty much exactly what 80% of Bob Dylan's entire catalog is and he's considered one of the greatest songwriters of all-time. So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "Unthought Known" is "finished"--they did release it that way, after all. I just think it's kind of a dull song (for the record I think it and "Amongst the Waves" are the low points of Backspacer, it baffles me why the band zeroed in on them).

harmless wrote:I'm just wondering why one pair of songs 'sucks' while the other pair is judged obviously 'unfinished' but otherwise awesome.

Because they're better songs. *Gasp*

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm just wondering why one pair of songs 'sucks' while the other pair is judged obviously 'unfinished' but otherwise awesome.

Because they're better songs. *Gasp*

LikeLukin wrote:

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm just wondering why one pair of songs 'sucks' while the other pair is judged obviously 'unfinished' but otherwise awesome.

Because they're better songs. *Gasp*

Well, sure, that's the suggestion. I just think the fact that two of them are shitty live audience recordings might count for a lot. But hey, I'm not getting into that again.

Kevin Davis wrote:

southp wrote: Overall I don't see the Backspacer songwriting as unfinished at all.

I don't either, really. Structurally, though, "Cold Confession" and "Unthought Known" are reasonable parallels--basically, a single verse pattern sustained through the duration of the song. There's nothing wrong with that--that's pretty much exactly what 80% of Bob Dylan's entire catalog is and he's considered one of the greatest songwriters of all-time. So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "Unthought Known" is "finished"--they did release it that way, after all. I just think it's kind of a dull song (for the record I think it and "Amongst the Waves" are the low points of Backspacer, it baffles me why the band zeroed in on them).

I can see where you're going but the dynamics of Unthought bring me to enough different places that I don't feel the same dull-ness as you. While the verse and pre-chorus have the same chord progression, the palm-muting to the open strumming and powerful vocal create a great build up to the chorus... Which despite having repetitive lyrics, is in fact a chorus - Something that I find is lacking in Cold Confession, which is why some of us deem it unfinished, and perhaps why the band didn't release it. Anyways, I like both songs, however Unthought happens to be my favourite song on BS.

southp wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

southp wrote: Overall I don't see the Backspacer songwriting as unfinished at all.

I don't either, really. Structurally, though, "Cold Confession" and "Unthought Known" are reasonable parallels--basically, a single verse pattern sustained through the duration of the song. There's nothing wrong with that--that's pretty much exactly what 80% of Bob Dylan's entire catalog is and he's considered one of the greatest songwriters of all-time. So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "Unthought Known" is "finished"--they did release it that way, after all. I just think it's kind of a dull song (for the record I think it and "Amongst the Waves" are the low points of Backspacer, it baffles me why the band zeroed in on them).

I can see where you're going but the dynamics of Unthought bring me to enough different places that I don't feel the same dull-ness as you. While the verse and pre-chorus have the same chord progression, the palm-muting to the open strumming and powerful vocal create a great build up to the chorus... Which despite having repetitive lyrics, is in fact a chorus - Something that I find is lacking in Cold Confession, which is why some of us deem it unfinished, and perhaps why the band didn't release it. Anyways, I like both songs, however Unthought happens to be my favourite song on BS.

a song doesnt need a chorus to be finished

southp wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

southp wrote: Overall I don't see the Backspacer songwriting as unfinished at all.

I don't either, really. Structurally, though, "Cold Confession" and "Unthought Known" are reasonable parallels--basically, a single verse pattern sustained through the duration of the song. There's nothing wrong with that--that's pretty much exactly what 80% of Bob Dylan's entire catalog is and he's considered one of the greatest songwriters of all-time. So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "Unthought Known" is "finished"--they did release it that way, after all. I just think it's kind of a dull song (for the record I think it and "Amongst the Waves" are the low points of Backspacer, it baffles me why the band zeroed in on them).

I can see where you're going but the dynamics of Unthought bring me to enough different places that I don't feel the same dull-ness as you. While the verse and pre-chorus have the same chord progression, the palm-muting to the open strumming and powerful vocal create a great build up to the chorus... Which despite having repetitive lyrics, is in fact a chorus - Something that I find is lacking in Cold Confession, which is why some of us deem it unfinished, and perhaps why the band didn't release it. Anyways, I like both songs, however Unthought happens to be my favourite song on BS.

I don't think it's unfinished in the structure i think the arrangement sounds like 1/2 the band isn't there. I mean it sounds like a rough sketch to me. A tentative development from someone's riff that never really developed into a song they were satisfied with. I don't think the lack of the chorus is an issue. It just bores me because is so repetitive.

You mean CC or Unthought Known?

cc

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

a) not on an album
b) sounds awqward
c) ed sounds horrible
d) doesn't sound like a (finished) pearl jam song

all kidding aside. I think this is related to liking the Fixer demo. It takes a lot of imagination to imagine that demo to be the superior song. It's just sort of unusual and that fits some people's taste better.

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

We'll probably never know, and I've only listened to LB and FD once. My impression (partly influenced by RM) is that FD is pretty boring and would probably be boring whether it was just Ed on a guitar, or whether it had a full Phil Spector treatment. LB meanwhile seems pretty solid, and when I hear the studio version I bet I'll like it more than LIR for example.

CC is becoming a thing onto it's own, which can't really be compared to anything. Why does Falling Down come to mind as a decent comparison?

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

a) not on an album
b) sounds awqward
c) ed sounds horrible
d) doesn't sound like a (finished) pearl jam song

all kidding aside. I think this is related to liking the Fixer demo. It takes a lot of imagination to imagine that demo to be the superior song. It's just sort of unusual and that fits some people's taste better.

Yeah, that's it. All I'm saying is that we can't judge these two 'unfinished' songs as objectively better than the other two finished songs, simply because we don't know they're finished. All we can say is that we prefer them in their current state as we have it. It's very likely that under the direction of whoever produced S/T (I can't remember), CC would've become Inside Job. We're lucky to have got it before it did, but even if it gets released later on as part of this legendary Lost Dogs 2, we don't know if it'll be any good.

harmless wrote:

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

a) not on an album
b) sounds awqward
c) ed sounds horrible
d) doesn't sound like a (finished) pearl jam song

all kidding aside. I think this is related to liking the Fixer demo. It takes a lot of imagination to imagine that demo to be the superior song. It's just sort of unusual and that fits some people's taste better.

Yeah, that's it. All I'm saying is that we can't judge these two 'unfinished' songs as objectively better than the other two finished songs, simply because we don't know they're finished. All we can say is that we prefer them in their current state as we have it. It's very likely that under the direction of whoever produced S/T (I can't remember), CC would've become Inside Job. We're lucky to have got it before it did, but even if it gets released later on as part of this legendary Lost Dogs 2, we don't know if it'll be any good.

hell we don't even know if we'll still like it in 4 months

southp wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

We'll probably never know, and I've only listened to LB and FD once. My impression (partly influenced by RM) is that FD is pretty boring and would probably be boring whether it was just Ed on a guitar, or whether it had a full Phil Spector treatment. LB meanwhile seems pretty solid, and when I hear the studio version I bet I'll like it more than LIR for example.

CC is becoming a thing onto it's own, which can't really be compared to anything. Why does Falling Down come to mind as a decent comparison?

I can't remember how Falling Down goes.

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

We'll probably never know, and I've only listened to LB and FD once. My impression (partly influenced by RM) is that FD is pretty boring and would probably be boring whether it was just Ed on a guitar, or whether it had a full Phil Spector treatment. LB meanwhile seems pretty solid, and when I hear the studio version I bet I'll like it more than LIR for example.

CC is becoming a thing onto it's own, which can't really be compared to anything. Why does Falling Down come to mind as a decent comparison?

I can't remember how Falling Down goes.

I can't remember how Cold Confession goes

harmless wrote:I can't remember how Falling Down goes.

And she wants you to steal and get caught
For she loves you for all that you are not
When you're falling down

southp wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

harmless wrote:

southp wrote:

Mine wrote:cc

And it's not to say it's bad... I really like it as-is. However if they were going to put it on an album in what Pearl Jam would consider "finished form", then it would most likely be quite different than what we've got here.

And that's why I asked why these songs are necessarily 'better' than LB or FD. The chances are that if they'd ever got 'finished', we would have thought they sucked.

We'll probably never know, and I've only listened to LB and FD once. My impression (partly influenced by RM) is that FD is pretty boring and would probably be boring whether it was just Ed on a guitar, or whether it had a full Phil Spector treatment. LB meanwhile seems pretty solid, and when I hear the studio version I bet I'll like it more than LIR for example.

CC is becoming a thing onto it's own, which can't really be compared to anything. Why does Falling Down come to mind as a decent comparison?

I can't remember how Falling Down goes.

I can't remember how Cold Confession goes

That's your comparison!