Red Mosquito

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Oh come on, harmless. There are no riffs on s/t and no hooks on backspacer? Really? The album you described as aural fructose 5 pages back?

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

Oh, they did. As far as I'm concerned. Vitalogy wasn't it. But No Code, Binaural and Riot Act are very subdued albums. Not as in your face and not utilising the bands biggest strengths in my opinion. And they are nowhere near their best work. Again, in my opinion. If someone likes it, it shouldn't matter what Ed says or thinks.

Right, and I don't know, it's just my opinion. No one knows anything. But even if you do find the earlier albums more direct than the middle ones (I don't, really), do you honestly think that Backspacer is a successful attempt to go *back* to a previous directness? Or is it a completely new turn into a patronising directness, one which kind of treats the listener like a sixteen-year-old? Because I can't help but feel like that's what's happening. I would rather we had albums that treated us like adults, and I don't think "Supersonic gonna save my soul", or whatever the lyric is, really does that. It's "direct" in the same way as "Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse" is direct compared to "Schindler's List."

Supersonic is a shitty song. The rest of backspacer is a mature and interesting record. I'm open sounds like it was written by a 16 year old. It does not make hail hail or red mosquito any less sophisticated

Well no, it doesn't, but all I'm countering is this idea that they're "returning" to more directness. Backspacer, for all that it has redeeming moments, is just not the same kind of music. It's a concerted effort to write very simplistic pop songs. So it simply can't be compared to even the apparent directness of Ten, because compared to Backspacer, Ten is completely "cryptic". So whatever you think about it, Ed is doing something completely new, and it's not the logical extension of their previous work. IMHO.

stip wrote:

bynightfall wrote:I ain't gettin it because his vocals sucked since binaural fact.

Oh good. This thread needs more facts

enough of this speculation!

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Oh come on, harmless. There are no riffs on s/t and no hooks on backspacer? Really? The album you described as aural fructose 5 pages back?

That post may have been misleading. I expanded on my point in my next post. The "riffs" and "hooks" we're hearing now are not a return to anything. They're a new direction, so I'm just simply not comparing them to old stuff because they're not comparable. There might be hooks or riffs but I'm just not hearing them, possibly because they're just not distinctive.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Very few hooks in the middle period for me(except Yield). S/T onwards, there are hooks aplenty. Moreso on Backspacer and the LB songs so far. S/T was sort of 50-50.

Where there are riffs or "hooks", they're not usually half as interesting as they used to be. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused; when I hear a decidedly average riff, I hear no riff. Where is the riff in Lightning Bolt? Swallowed Whole? Getaway? They're just thrashing around on open chords, as they did on Backspacer and most of S/T. Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

I'm not a guitar player and riffs aren't a big deal for me. The hooks are the choruses which stick in my head and the vocal melodies which I want to sing along to. I find more of that on S/T than either of No Code, Binaural or Riot Act. And many more on BS and LB.

Sirens has a huge big hook in it, twice, and it has split the fan base right down the middle.
Maybe they've groomed us not expect hooks, and to dislike them if they do?

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Very few hooks in the middle period for me(except Yield). S/T onwards, there are hooks aplenty. Moreso on Backspacer and the LB songs so far. S/T was sort of 50-50.

Where there are riffs or "hooks", they're not usually half as interesting as they used to be. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused; when I hear a decidedly average riff, I hear no riff. Where is the riff in Lightning Bolt? Swallowed Whole? Getaway? They're just thrashing around on open chords, as they did on Backspacer and most of S/T. Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

I'm not a guitar player and riffs aren't a big deal for me. The hooks are the choruses which stick in my head and the vocal melodies which I want to sing along to. I find more of that on S/T than either of No Code, Binaural or Riot Act. And many more on BS and LB.

OK, I appreciate that if singing along to catchy choruses is your focus, there's some strong stuff in the recent catalogue. But that's not what I've been thinking of when I say "hooks". I think more in terms of interesting musical parts. And I also disagree that there weren't loads of those in the middle period. There were, they just didn't often sound happy and uplifting, and I think that's the elephant in the room. PJ are more and more about life-affirming celebration of life-affirming life, and they've written songs to reflect that lately. I guess that's what they mean when they talk about songs with hooks.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

Oh, they did. As far as I'm concerned. Vitalogy wasn't it. But No Code, Binaural and Riot Act are very subdued albums. Not as in your face and not utilising the bands biggest strengths in my opinion. And they are nowhere near their best work. Again, in my opinion. If someone likes it, it shouldn't matter what Ed says or thinks.

Right, and I don't know, it's just my opinion. No one knows anything. But even if you do find the earlier albums more direct than the middle ones (I don't, really), do you honestly think that Backspacer is a successful attempt to go *back* to a previous directness? Or is it a completely new turn into a patronising directness, one which kind of treats the listener like a sixteen-year-old? Because I can't help but feel like that's what's happening. I would rather we had albums that treated us like adults, and I don't think "Supersonic gonna save my soul", or whatever the lyric is, really does that. It's "direct" in the same way as "Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse" is direct compared to "Schindler's List."

Supersonic is a shitty song. The rest of backspacer is a mature and interesting record. I'm open sounds like it was written by a 16 year old. It does not make hail hail or red mosquito any less sophisticated

Well no, it doesn't, but all I'm countering is this idea that they're "returning" to more directness. Backspacer, for all that it has redeeming moments, is just not the same kind of music. It's a concerted effort to write very simplistic pop songs. So it simply can't be compared to even the apparent directness of Ten, because compared to Backspacer, Ten is completely "cryptic". So whatever you think about it, Ed is doing something completely new, and it's not the logical extension of their previous work. IMHO.

The big difference with Ten is the mood of the album. Which was set by the lyrics Ed wrote. The musical approach is just as direct except that BS has shorter, punkier songs by design. But the melodies, choruses, even some of the guitar solos are reminiscent of Ten. There's nothing about Ten I find cryptic except some of the personal lyrics which have always been so. Ten has darkness and depression. Backspacer is and uplifting record. That's the major difference. What they are doing on BS as far as song structure is concerned is taking some of the things they did on earlier records and using them to make similarly anthemic songs but with a completely different mood.

Release_Me wrote:

stupidmop wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

C'Mon vitalogy is 'weird' cause ed wanted it to be. Bugs, stupidmop, aye davanita, pry to, all the weird song intros. I think manufactured is the wrong word but I think he had a vision for it and went for it.

I agree that it was a lot more emotional, but that's cause ed was still writing about stuff directly happening to him, corduroy, not for you, satans bed are all about things related to fame or what have you. Then he realised the note he wrote about himself the crazier the stalkers got so he stopped.

I actually think binaural and riot act have less of a direction than vitalogy . Riot act escpecially seems rather aimless to me.

It had a vision, yes. The weirdness is because of the non-songs and yes, that was Ed being Ed. That part is cryptic and intentionally so. However, the actual songs on the record are fairly direct and emotional. How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs? In the end, it all comes down to Corduroy, Not For You, Last Exit, Immortality, Nothingman, etc. The real songs. No Code onwards, very few songs of the same ilk.

I like bugs more than not for you and nothing man, so there!

I don't think the songs on the following records aren't as good because they tried not making them as good or catchy or whatever. Less emotional sure. But insignificance and greivance are up thier with rvm and corduroy for me in terms of eds song writing, again they're less emotional but not devoid of emotion, he's older, they're more mature. Off he goes is pretty emotional, given to fly Do the evolution....

Which songs do you find intentionally difficult or indirect ?

I agree with whoever said yesterday that the albums are reflective of eds emotional state, binaural and riot act were never gonna be deep angry and emotional or outgoing and joyous because ed wasn't there. You can tell the difference when you watch him onstage.

harmless wrote:I'm struggling to see how "Last Exit" is direct in the same way Backspacer is.

I honestly just think they haven't got the time / don't want to take the time to write the very interesting, clever songs anymore. They've got lives to live and they'd rather just trot out fairly basic and easy-on-the-ears rock music. That's fine, but I'd rather they just be honest about that.

Wasnt most of vitalogy written in spare moments on the road?

dimejinky99 wrote:Sirens has a huge big hook in it, twice, and it has split the fan base right down the middle.
Maybe they've groomed us not expect hooks, and to dislike them if they do?

That's a real possibility and an intelligent comment. I'm enjoying singing to Sirens and I haven't enjoyed singing a PJ song since Riot Act. So that's where I disagree with people who say they didn't write hooky stuff in the middle period. I love singing to all those middle albums, personally. Maybe I'm just difficult and weird.

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm struggling to see how "Last Exit" is direct in the same way Backspacer is.

I honestly just think they haven't got the time / don't want to take the time to write the very interesting, clever songs anymore. They've got lives to live and they'd rather just trot out fairly basic and easy-on-the-ears rock music. That's fine, but I'd rather they just be honest about that.

Wasnt most of vitalogy written in spare moments on the road?

Possibly, but when you're on the road you're wholly focussed on music. When you're at home doing family life, you're not.

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Very few hooks in the middle period for me(except Yield). S/T onwards, there are hooks aplenty. Moreso on Backspacer and the LB songs so far. S/T was sort of 50-50.

Where there are riffs or "hooks", they're not usually half as interesting as they used to be. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused; when I hear a decidedly average riff, I hear no riff. Where is the riff in Lightning Bolt? Swallowed Whole? Getaway? They're just thrashing around on open chords, as they did on Backspacer and most of S/T. Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

I'm not a guitar player and riffs aren't a big deal for me. The hooks are the choruses which stick in my head and the vocal melodies which I want to sing along to. I find more of that on S/T than either of No Code, Binaural or Riot Act. And many more on BS and LB.

OK, I appreciate that if singing along to catchy choruses is your focus, there's some strong stuff in the recent catalogue. But that's not what I've been thinking of when I say "hooks". I think more in terms of interesting musical parts. And I also disagree that there weren't loads of those in the middle period. There were, they just didn't often sound happy and uplifting, and I think that's the elephant in the room. PJ are more and more about life-affirming celebration of life-affirming life, and they've written songs to reflect that lately. I guess that's what they mean when they talk about songs with hooks.

The middle period has very little in the way of hooks, except Yield. The melodies are not as memorable. There may be other things to recommend those albums but they are a very dry listen if you want hooks. BS is a celebratory record and was meant to be so. I don't see how that makes it inferior. The LB songs so far have been a mix. They're not 'happy'. But the uplifting music such as on Getaway is combined with a serious subject. That works for me. They used that combination effectively before on their rockers and I've already mentioned examples.

Alive and Evenflow have big hooks and they weren't meant to be uplifting songs, despite the music. Ed's lyrics and delivery made them dark. On LB, more than darkness per se, we see social commentary or discussion of what bugs Ed. The darkness maybe seen on the other songs we have yet to hear.

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

HIPSTERS! HIPSTERS ALL!!

"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

harmless wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:Sirens has a huge big hook in it, twice, and it has split the fan base right down the middle.
Maybe they've groomed us not expect hooks, and to dislike them if they do?

That's a real possibility and an intelligent comment. I'm enjoying singing to Sirens and I haven't enjoyed singing a PJ song since Riot Act. So that's where I disagree with people who say they didn't write hooky stuff in the middle period. I love singing to all those middle albums, personally. Maybe I'm just difficult and weird.

Well as an idea it clashes wildly with what I found in my thread over on the pit about Sirens being a new anthem over alive(meaning for a new generation of fans)
Cos all the hardcore took a shit on the idea and seemed to love Pj being anthemic.

Which I never thought they were other than Alive and that's purely by mistake.
Betterman is a hugely popular song but its not anthemic.

I'm having trouble thinking of Pj songs I like to sing along to. There's loads though.

harmless wrote:

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

I'd love to see a poll on this. Take out the meat of the record and there's nothing on it which would make me want to listen to it. The non-songs are only interesting in context. Even then, I would have preferred actual songs.