Red Mosquito

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Very few hooks in the middle period for me(except Yield). S/T onwards, there are hooks aplenty. Moreso on Backspacer and the LB songs so far. S/T was sort of 50-50.

Where there are riffs or "hooks", they're not usually half as interesting as they used to be. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused; when I hear a decidedly average riff, I hear no riff. Where is the riff in Lightning Bolt? Swallowed Whole? Getaway? They're just thrashing around on open chords, as they did on Backspacer and most of S/T. Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

I'm not a guitar player and riffs aren't a big deal for me. The hooks are the choruses which stick in my head and the vocal melodies which I want to sing along to. I find more of that on S/T than either of No Code, Binaural or Riot Act. And many more on BS and LB.

OK, I appreciate that if singing along to catchy choruses is your focus, there's some strong stuff in the recent catalogue. But that's not what I've been thinking of when I say "hooks". I think more in terms of interesting musical parts. And I also disagree that there weren't loads of those in the middle period. There were, they just didn't often sound happy and uplifting, and I think that's the elephant in the room. PJ are more and more about life-affirming celebration of life-affirming life, and they've written songs to reflect that lately. I guess that's what they mean when they talk about songs with hooks.

The middle period has very little in the way of hooks, except Yield. The melodies are not as memorable. There may be other things to recommend those albums but they are a very dry listen if you want hooks. BS is a celebratory record and was meant to be so. I don't see how that makes it inferior. The LB songs so far have been a mix. They're not 'happy'. But the uplifting music such as on Getaway is combined with a serious subject. That works for me. They used that combination effectively before on their rockers and I've already mentioned examples.

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

I'd love to see a poll on this. Take out the meat of the record and there's nothing on it which would make me want to listen to it. The non-songs are only interesting in context. Even then, I would have preferred actual songs.

stip wrote:I don't think anyone is going to say that they prefer that stuff to the songs. Just that they enhance the record in meaningful ways

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

sward wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't find Vitalogy to be cryptic. It's interesting, yes. But it's not manufactured to be something interesting. The songs are mostly direct and dripping with emotion, be it rage or heartbreak. The events surrounding the album just made that album what it was. Ed probably knows better than us what some of the songs mean. But that was always the case. No one would have known Alive was about incest unless he said it in so many words.

They didn't "manufacture" anything to be interesting. They just wrote songs, and they were interesting. I don't like the negative spin Ed tries to put on their best material. They don't even play most of it live anymore. All this talk of deliberately trying to write material that nobody understands is rubbish, they're just trying to distract listeners away from that stuff because... well, I have no idea. What they did on Riot Act was no different to what they did on Vitalogy, i.e. good songs.

I think its obvious that there was a period they tried to avoid a 'hook' at any cost.

And yet 1) in the middle period, I hear plenty of interesting "hooks", or at least, interesting features in the songs, and 2) since S/T, I've heard virtually no hooks, riffs, or anything. So you know... it's spin.

Very few hooks in the middle period for me(except Yield). S/T onwards, there are hooks aplenty. Moreso on Backspacer and the LB songs so far. S/T was sort of 50-50.

Where there are riffs or "hooks", they're not usually half as interesting as they used to be. Maybe that's where I'm getting confused; when I hear a decidedly average riff, I hear no riff. Where is the riff in Lightning Bolt? Swallowed Whole? Getaway? They're just thrashing around on open chords, as they did on Backspacer and most of S/T. Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

I'm not a guitar player and riffs aren't a big deal for me. The hooks are the choruses which stick in my head and the vocal melodies which I want to sing along to. I find more of that on S/T than either of No Code, Binaural or Riot Act. And many more on BS and LB.

OK, I appreciate that if singing along to catchy choruses is your focus, there's some strong stuff in the recent catalogue. But that's not what I've been thinking of when I say "hooks". I think more in terms of interesting musical parts. And I also disagree that there weren't loads of those in the middle period. There were, they just didn't often sound happy and uplifting, and I think that's the elephant in the room. PJ are more and more about life-affirming celebration of life-affirming life, and they've written songs to reflect that lately. I guess that's what they mean when they talk about songs with hooks.

The middle period has very little in the way of hooks, except Yield. The melodies are not as memorable. There may be other things to recommend those albums but they are a very dry listen if you want hooks. BS is a celebratory record and was meant to be so. I don't see how that makes it inferior. The LB songs so far have been a mix. They're not 'happy'. But the uplifting music such as on Getaway is combined with a serious subject. That works for me. They used that combination effectively before on their rockers and I've already mentioned examples.

Backspacer isn't inferior because it's celebratory; it's inferior because most of the songs aren't very good. I don't think PJ do "celebratory" very well. Obviously that's my opinion and you don't agree, but there it is. I do think that much of the middle period is highly memorable. Again, we're just not hearing the same thing.

I will agree with you that "uplifting" is combined with more force and depth on the new stuff, so let's hope Lightning Bolt is a step forward into combining the best of both worlds. I just don't think "uplifting" and "depressing" is actually a helpful binary. But it's one that PJ seem to be stuck in; our stuff used to be "difficult" but now it's "easy". It used to be depressing but now it's happy. Nothing is that simple. For me, real mature feeling acknowledges that everything is both. Nothing is 100% uplifting and nothing is 100% without hope. I just want some nuance in the music that appreciates that, and PJ at their best know how to bring it.

enimmi wrote:This is the front cover of Rolling Stone by the way which features the interview with Ed.

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

I'd love to see a poll on this. Take out the meat of the record and there's nothing on it which would make me want to listen to it. The non-songs are only interesting in context. Even then, I would have preferred actual songs.

But the "non-songs" could be technically inessential, and still make the record what it is. They don't need to be played on their own to be crucial to Vitalogy.

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

I agree. If that's the definition we're using, that's probably why most of us don't have Ten on daily rotation. We don't need those ear-worm hooks anymore.

harmless wrote:I'm pretty excited about this film, guys

jtr101 wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm pretty excited about this film, guys

What time can we expect it, anyone know?

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

harmless wrote:

jtr101 wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm pretty excited about this film, guys

What time can we expect it, anyone know?

I think someone said 3pm EST?

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

enimmi wrote:This is the front cover of Rolling Stone by the way which features the interview with Ed.

is that justin bieber?