Red Mosquito

harmless wrote:Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

More Stone

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

More Stone

LTRP isn't all that clever either

It happened to me with all those songs. An immediate reaction for most of them and it was mostly down to Ed's delivery. I don't feel a song that has immediate impact is in anyway inferior to one which grows on you. Rearviewmirror is probably the slowest building one of those but even in that one, the guitar riff gets stuck in your head if not the actual vocal melody. The ending is killer and Ed wailing over Mike's solo is one of my favourite moments. Yet, I like Corduroy just as much and it's mainly because the vocal melody is just so damn catchy. It got stuck in my head the first time I heard it.

LB songs so far have been a mix. Getway, LB, MYM and LTRP I liked straight off the bat. Swallowed Whole and Sirens took time to grow. But I really like all of them so far.

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

harmless wrote:

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

More Stone

LTRP isn't all that clever either

This is an example of a hook I find rather annoying. The "I've faced it, A Life Wasted, I'm never going back again" part. And my brain is already repeating the phrase. Argh.

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

I think the reasons you have your opinion are registering. We just don't really agree.

'Big Wave' and 'Supersonic' were pretty much the first songs this band had ever written that I thought were absolute junk, and that's because they didn't have any of this interesting context you speak of. I agree, you can't just take a chorus out of isolation; but if you pick a song's lyrics apart and they seem phoned-in all the way through, you're going to call it a regression even if "directness" was the stated aim. I like The Fixer for *almost* achieving what it set out to do, but what it sets out to do is absolutely nothing like what "Alive" set out to do. The Fixer remains simplistic the entire way through, even with its one or two nods to graves and zombies.

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:Is that a "hook" on Life Wasted? It's not an interesting one.

More Stone

LTRP isn't all that clever either

This is an example of a hook I find rather annoying. The "I've faced it, A Life Wasted, I'm never going back again" part. And my brain is already repeating the phrase. Argh.

Yeah, when I say I've not enjoyed singing along to anything since Riot Act, that's what I mean. It just feels embarrassing to belt that out, almost like you're at a church family service and they want you to perform the actions for a children's song. Horrible chorus. On LTRP, I enjoy the "second chorus" or bridge or whatever it is, more than the waking and baking one.

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Yeah, you're probably right. If hooks are done right and they stand the test of time thats wonderful. I just don't need hooks from Pearl Jam for them to be good.

This thread...
-I think the band sounds great as a unit so far on these LB songs. We really need this album to drop so we can hear the guitar work better because there is more than thrashing open chords going on.
-Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.
-Pearl Jam was founded in pop with hooks and Vitalogy is full of them. Some are stuck on the exception and not the rule.
- The guitar work in S/T is fantastic
- Backspacer is not celebratory. It was meant to be ironic and failed miserably.
- I find LB far more interesting musically so far than a lot of middle era songs.
- Infallible

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Yeah, you're probably right. If hooks are done right and they stand the test of time thats wonderful. I just don't need hooks from Pearl Jam for them to be good.

Me neither. When there weren't hooks to rely on, they were more satisfying musically in my opinion. But there it is, I'll take it if it sounds good to me. If Ed's adjusting his approach as a writer, so must I as a listener, but I can only go so far.

Thejambi wrote:This thread...
-I think the band sounds great as a unit so far on these LB songs. We really need this album to drop so we can hear the guitar work better because there is more than thrashing open chords going on.
-Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.
-Pearl Jam was founded in pop with hooks and Vitalogy is full of them. Some are stuck on the exception and not the rule.
- The guitar work in S/T is fantastic
- Backspacer is not celebratory. It was meant to be ironic and failed miserably.
- I find LB far more interesting musically so far than a lot of middle era songs.
- Infallible

Do you think so? I never heard that. I wanted to hear that but I never did. I think Ed was perfectly sincere in his desire to fight to get it back again.

Release_Me wrote:Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

For years, it was playing word games and expressing those emotions, but doing it in such a way that was cryptic and where Mark Arm from Mudhoney would still have some modicum of respect for me. But nowadays, it's more like sitting down and writing a song, and whatever comes out, comes out.

Sounds to me like he's tiptoeing around the fact that he's gotten comfortable with the idea of dumbing down the lyrics.

Release_Me wrote:They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

Those are pretty great things to write songs about.

I mean, really, what else worthwhile is there to sing about? Yeah, exactly.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

I think the reasons you have your opinion are registering. We just don't really agree.

'Big Wave' and 'Supersonic' were pretty much the first songs this band had ever written that I thought were absolute junk, and that's because they didn't have any of this interesting context you speak of. I agree, you can't just take a chorus out of isolation; but if you pick a song's lyrics apart and they seem phoned-in all the way through, you're going to call it a regression even if "directness" was the stated aim. I like The Fixer for *almost* achieving what it set out to do, but what it sets out to do is absolutely nothing like what "Alive" set out to do. The Fixer remains simplistic the entire way through, even with its one or two nods to graves and zombies.

I felt that way about one song on almost every album, not just those two. Bugs, Pilate, Lukin, I'm Open, Help Help, etc. I think those are pretty much the junk on those albums. That's not PJ being direct or a real example of the directness which I was talking about, it's just them trying something which doesn't work because of silliness or inappropriateness, in my opinion. I still enjoy them when in the mood. The Fixer and Backspacer the album itself are trying for something completely different and you can't blame them for not achieving what other songs do when they are not even trying to achieve those things.

harmless wrote:

Thejambi wrote:This thread...
-I think the band sounds great as a unit so far on these LB songs. We really need this album to drop so we can hear the guitar work better because there is more than thrashing open chords going on.
-Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.
-Pearl Jam was founded in pop with hooks and Vitalogy is full of them. Some are stuck on the exception and not the rule.
- The guitar work in S/T is fantastic
- Backspacer is not celebratory. It was meant to be ironic and failed miserably.
- I find LB far more interesting musically so far than a lot of middle era songs.
- Infallible

Do you think so? I never heard that. I wanted to hear that but I never did. I think Ed was perfectly sincere in his desire to fight to get it back again.

The album is full of addiction, death, regret and yearning in addition to appreciation. The candy coating was just too thick.

McParadigm wrote:

Release_Me wrote:Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

For years, it was playing word games and expressing those emotions, but doing it in such a way that was cryptic and where Mark Arm from Mudhoney would still have some modicum of respect for me. But nowadays, it's more like sitting down and writing a song, and whatever comes out, comes out.

Sounds to me like he's tiptoeing around the fact that he's gotten comfortable with the idea of dumbing down the lyrics.

I don't see the middle period album lyrics anymore intelligent than what we are hearing with LB or what we heard with the first three albums. Opaque, hard to decipher, maybe. That doesn't translate to intelligent at all in my book.

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't feel making songs intentionally cryptic or difficult has anything to do with quality. PJ's highest quality stuff is found on the first three records. Those three albums were released within 3 years of each other. They put out what they felt like. I generally prefer it when they do that.

Vitalogy was incredibly clever, idiosyncratic and yes, "cryptic", in parts. That's what makes it great. Ed can use whatever words he wants to describe the period beginning at Vitalogy, but those words will reflect what he feels about those records more than what they actually are. They're not "difficult" or "obscure" or whatever; what they are is thoughtful and interesting.

Look, I love vitalogy but this romantic idea of it being some super natural visitor from the heavens is a little over played. I'd say every song on there is pretty obvious as to what it's about. I'd say the most cryptic is tremor Christ and immortality. Otherwise, they are all fairly obvious lyrics.