Red Mosquito

Just leak dammit... let the pain end... ugh

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

I think the reasons you have your opinion are registering. We just don't really agree.

'Big Wave' and 'Supersonic' were pretty much the first songs this band had ever written that I thought were absolute junk, and that's because they didn't have any of this interesting context you speak of. I agree, you can't just take a chorus out of isolation; but if you pick a song's lyrics apart and they seem phoned-in all the way through, you're going to call it a regression even if "directness" was the stated aim. I like The Fixer for *almost* achieving what it set out to do, but what it sets out to do is absolutely nothing like what "Alive" set out to do. The Fixer remains simplistic the entire way through, even with its one or two nods to graves and zombies.

I felt that way about one song on almost every album, not just those two. Bugs, Pilate, Lukin, I'm Open, Help Help, etc. I think those are pretty much the junk on those albums. That's not PJ being direct or a real example of the directness which I was talking about, it's just them trying something which doesn't work because of silliness or inappropriateness, in my opinion. I still enjoy them when in the mood. The Fixer and Backspacer the album itself are trying for something completely different and you can't blame them for not achieving what other songs do when they are not even trying to achieve those things.

I don't even know where to start with this. Not one of those "junk" songs you've listed is actually junk; they're songs you don't like, but the evidence they are objectively "difficult" or "junk" (and especially that they're the same songs Ed is referring to when he talks about weaker middle-period songs) just isn't there. Also, I'm not really blaming any songs for not achieving anything that other songs have. I only compared The Fixer and Alive because you did and I was responding to you. We were talking about songs with "hooks" and according to you, both songs have "hooks". So are you now admitting that The Fixer is trying to do something brand-new? Because I too have acknowledged that, and I still think it ultimately fails to do what it sets out to do, even on its own terms. That's a subjective judgement but it's pretty unfairly reductive to say that I just want it to give me the same tingles as "Alive".

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

WtOB? wrote:

Release_Me wrote:How many of us think Vitalogy is a great record because of the non-songs

a lot of us, actually.

I'd love to see a poll on this. Take out the meat of the record and there's nothing on it which would make me want to listen to it. The non-songs are only interesting in context. Even then, I would have preferred actual songs.

I think the 'non-songs' are somewhat over-stated in their impact. The band said they were going for an Urge Overkill vibe which is more about segues than songs.

Pry, to - 1:03
Bugs - 2:45
Aye Davinita - 2:58
Stupid mop - 7:28

That still leaves 41:16 running time which is longer than Crapspacer and if you end with Immortality as I assume most people do, except when they are baked, then you've got less than 7 minutes of 'non-songs' out of 48 minutes.

Furthermore, when you are playing it as a record it makes even more sense as all 4 songs are on side B. But 'buried' between those songs are three of the best PJ songs of all-time Corduroy, Betterman and Immortality.

Huell wrote:Just leak dammit... let the pain end... ugh

Yeah I would like to get on with my life

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

I think the reasons you have your opinion are registering. We just don't really agree.

'Big Wave' and 'Supersonic' were pretty much the first songs this band had ever written that I thought were absolute junk, and that's because they didn't have any of this interesting context you speak of. I agree, you can't just take a chorus out of isolation; but if you pick a song's lyrics apart and they seem phoned-in all the way through, you're going to call it a regression even if "directness" was the stated aim. I like The Fixer for *almost* achieving what it set out to do, but what it sets out to do is absolutely nothing like what "Alive" set out to do. The Fixer remains simplistic the entire way through, even with its one or two nods to graves and zombies.

I felt that way about one song on almost every album, not just those two. Bugs, Pilate, Lukin, I'm Open, Help Help, etc. I think those are pretty much the junk on those albums. That's not PJ being direct or a real example of the directness which I was talking about, it's just them trying something which doesn't work because of silliness or inappropriateness, in my opinion. I still enjoy them when in the mood. The Fixer and Backspacer the album itself are trying for something completely different and you can't blame them for not achieving what other songs do when they are not even trying to achieve those things.

I don't even know where to start with this. Not one of those "junk" songs you've listed is actually junk; they're songs you don't like, but the evidence they are objectively "difficult" or "junk" (and especially that they're the same songs Ed is referring to when he talks about weaker middle-period songs) just isn't there. Also, I'm not really blaming any songs for not achieving anything that other songs have. I only compared The Fixer and Alive because you did and I was responding to you. We were talking about songs with "hooks" and according to you, both songs have "hooks". So are you now admitting that The Fixer is trying to do something brand-new? Because I too have acknowledged that, and I still think it ultimately fails to do what it sets out to do, even on its own terms. That's a subjective judgement but it's pretty unfairly reductive to say that I just want it to give me the same tingles as "Alive".

Help, Help is one of the best songs this band has ever written.

Thejambi wrote: Help, Help is one of the best songs this band has ever written.

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

Wait, how do we know when the EPK is released? Was that 3pm EST official or just made up?

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

The bass is produced strangely in these songs. Maybe thats why you don't hear it clearly. I really hope the songs we have are of bad quality and the real songs sound better. The bass is really audible and clear in Sirens so I'm kind of hopeful.

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

The bass is produced strangely in these songs. Maybe thats why you don't hear it clearly. I really hope the songs we have are of bad quality and the real songs sound better. The bass is really audible and clear in Sirens so I'm kind of hopeful.

Definitely. I'm disappointed with Matt and Jeff on MYM, but that's my only real gripe.

Everything they released so far they released at 19:00pm in my timezone. That would be 4 hours from now. Take that as you will regarding the EPK.

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

The bass is produced strangely in these songs. Maybe thats why you don't hear it clearly. I really hope the songs we have are of bad quality and the real songs sound better. The bass is really audible and clear in Sirens so I'm kind of hopeful.

Much better than the last two albums - Bass production on S/T was abysmal (even Jeff has said so). Backspacer was better but I felt they didn't give Jeff's parts the edge and separation they needed. MYM and Sirens feel and sound a lot better.

Blenheim Augustine wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

The bass is produced strangely in these songs. Maybe thats why you don't hear it clearly. I really hope the songs we have are of bad quality and the real songs sound better. The bass is really audible and clear in Sirens so I'm kind of hopeful.

Much better than the last two albums - Bass production on S/T was abysmal (even Jeff has said so). Backspacer was better but I felt they didn't give Jeff's parts the edge and separation they needed. MYM and Sirens feel and sound a lot better.

I like his bass on Backspacer. It sounds...juicy.

Mike wrote:

Blenheim Augustine wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Thejambi wrote: -Jeff is carrying much of the "riff" load which I find totally fine.

Haha, I totally forgot that I initially wanted to post about Jeff in here today but then there was this hook discussion. Jeff is all over these songs we've heard so far sometimes even dominating them. I love him at the end of Lightning Bolt.

Yup.

I'm hearing more Jeff on some songs than others, though. I get the feeling that some people's ears are more fine-tuned than mine for bass. He's all over Getaway to these ears, but less obvious in other songs. I hope he's more cranked up on the real thing.

The bass is produced strangely in these songs. Maybe thats why you don't hear it clearly. I really hope the songs we have are of bad quality and the real songs sound better. The bass is really audible and clear in Sirens so I'm kind of hopeful.

Much better than the last two albums - Bass production on S/T was abysmal (even Jeff has said so). Backspacer was better but I felt they didn't give Jeff's parts the edge and separation they needed. MYM and Sirens feel and sound a lot better.

I like his bass on Backspacer. It sounds...juicy.

The bass also sounds really good on Swallowed Whole.

Thejambi wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I feel like this 'return' to catchy choruses and shit is more a regression than anything. She's your lightning bolt, your rock and roll, shes true...

They went backwards all the way to ten and then busted through it to the otherside. We're a fraction away from 'what the funk is up' people.

I agree. It's not a return. It's something new. Lately they've just wanted to write music which is not intellectually engaging. Lightning Bolt's chorus, however, isn't the best example of that, because "I'm still alive" is no more intelligent than that. Neither is "I'd rather be with an animal." I do think there's more going on in the verses of Lightning Bolt; if there's anything lyrically interesting in that song, it's there.

Completely disagree with it not being a return and something new, or any sort of regression. I've already said why it's a return but it doesn't seem to be registering. What can you do.

As far as the lyrics are concerned, you can take any line out of context and make it look like it's unintelligent. Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

I think the reasons you have your opinion are registering. We just don't really agree.

'Big Wave' and 'Supersonic' were pretty much the first songs this band had ever written that I thought were absolute junk, and that's because they didn't have any of this interesting context you speak of. I agree, you can't just take a chorus out of isolation; but if you pick a song's lyrics apart and they seem phoned-in all the way through, you're going to call it a regression even if "directness" was the stated aim. I like The Fixer for *almost* achieving what it set out to do, but what it sets out to do is absolutely nothing like what "Alive" set out to do. The Fixer remains simplistic the entire way through, even with its one or two nods to graves and zombies.

I felt that way about one song on almost every album, not just those two. Bugs, Pilate, Lukin, I'm Open, Help Help, etc. I think those are pretty much the junk on those albums. That's not PJ being direct or a real example of the directness which I was talking about, it's just them trying something which doesn't work because of silliness or inappropriateness, in my opinion. I still enjoy them when in the mood. The Fixer and Backspacer the album itself are trying for something completely different and you can't blame them for not achieving what other songs do when they are not even trying to achieve those things.

I don't even know where to start with this. Not one of those "junk" songs you've listed is actually junk; they're songs you don't like, but the evidence they are objectively "difficult" or "junk" (and especially that they're the same songs Ed is referring to when he talks about weaker middle-period songs) just isn't there. Also, I'm not really blaming any songs for not achieving anything that other songs have. I only compared The Fixer and Alive because you did and I was responding to you. We were talking about songs with "hooks" and according to you, both songs have "hooks". So are you now admitting that The Fixer is trying to do something brand-new? Because I too have acknowledged that, and I still think it ultimately fails to do what it sets out to do, even on its own terms. That's a subjective judgement but it's pretty unfairly reductive to say that I just want it to give me the same tingles as "Alive".

Help, Help is one of the best songs this band has ever written.

I agree...Help Help is my fav off of Riot Act...very underrated....Best outro of all time...I want an album full of help helps and you ares

SW also has a suitably hook-free chorus. It's a nice one to sing along to with a melody that isn't too simple.

McParadigm wrote:

Release_Me wrote:Ed's always merged simple sounding choruses with more complex verses. Wordy, intelligent parts are not reserved for choruses because it's kind of a no brainer to have the easier to sing along to part as the chorus. If you look at I'm still alive in isolation, or even Mind your Manners or She's a lightnint bolt, you can think it's simple and unintelligent. Context is what matters and gives these lyrics their meaning.

For years, it was playing word games and expressing those emotions, but doing it in such a way that was cryptic and where Mark Arm from Mudhoney would still have some modicum of respect for me. But nowadays, it's more like sitting down and writing a song, and whatever comes out, comes out.

Sounds to me like he's tiptoeing around the fact that he's gotten comfortable with the idea of dumbing down the lyrics.

Yeh, well, these lyrics are certainly not dumbed down, right?

"Nothing man, ohh nothing man... could've been something... nothing man"

"I'd rather be, I'd rather be, I'd rather be with an animal"

"drop the leash, drop the leash, get out of my fucking face"

to me, this doesn't seem too different from...

"She's a lightning bolt, she's your rock and roll, she's true."

...except on the surface there's "what seems to be" a positive vibe conveyed. People here hate when Ed does that sort of thing. It's not the lyrics. It's the underlying vibe of the lyrics.

The irony, of course, is the entire context within the song's lyrics are practically indecipherable and LB (the song) could actually have deep negative connotations at it's heart.

harmless wrote:The bass also sounds really good on Swallowed Whole.

I think the only thing I have never complained about with respect to Pearl Jam is Jeff's playing and bass tone. He has always had it figured out