Red Mosquito

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:The Big Wave lyrics are terrible. If Lightning Bolt is a song about surfing (which it is, partly) it's miles and miles better than Big Wave. BW is a "You'd get it if you were a surfer" kind of song.

Love Big Wave. It's got a a great tempo and gets the listener rocking out and wanting to go back and hit repeat. You're clearly a stickler for lyrics, I'm only a stickler when the song draws attention to it. Big Wave is more about the melody and pace, and the lyrics supplement just fine w/ nice little rhyming patterns. Great way to move the album forward. Too bad Gone doesn't come through in a stronger way.

I would definitely like BW more with better lyrics. And actually I'm one of the few people on this board who will defend Gone as a good song It meant something to me at the time.

stip wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:Had he mentioned anyone else but mark arm you guys would be blaming that person on ruining the band. Fucking can't stand motherfuckin mark arm



Oh and this

whose review is that, Dime?

John Robinson's

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Man, I think the initial listens of the songs are just as valid as future listens. Only evaluating a song based on how it plays to you after 1000 listens is cool, but you don't want to discount how the song made you feel initially. Even the greatest songs of all time (like the Stones Gimmie Shelter or something) at some point I'll find myself hitting skip just cause it's not where I am at that moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that a song had tremendous impact on me. My fav record is Vitalogy but I only go back to it a couple times a year at most. That doesn't take away from the fact that I think it's awesome.

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:The Big Wave lyrics are terrible. If Lightning Bolt is a song about surfing (which it is, partly) it's miles and miles better than Big Wave. BW is a "You'd get it if you were a surfer" kind of song.

Love Big Wave. It's got a a great tempo and gets the listener rocking out and wanting to go back and hit repeat. You're clearly a stickler for lyrics, I'm only a stickler when the song draws attention to it. Big Wave is more about the melody and pace, and the lyrics supplement just fine w/ nice little rhyming patterns. Great way to move the album forward. Too bad Gone doesn't come through in a stronger way.

I would definitely like BW more with better lyrics. And actually I'm one of the few people on this board who will defend Gone as a good song It meant something to me at the time.

I think Gone is great. I really never understood the hate.

Wonder when this short film will drop.

guitar_davey wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:The Big Wave lyrics are terrible. If Lightning Bolt is a song about surfing (which it is, partly) it's miles and miles better than Big Wave. BW is a "You'd get it if you were a surfer" kind of song.

Love Big Wave. It's got a a great tempo and gets the listener rocking out and wanting to go back and hit repeat. You're clearly a stickler for lyrics, I'm only a stickler when the song draws attention to it. Big Wave is more about the melody and pace, and the lyrics supplement just fine w/ nice little rhyming patterns. Great way to move the album forward. Too bad Gone doesn't come through in a stronger way.

I would definitely like BW more with better lyrics. And actually I'm one of the few people on this board who will defend Gone as a good song It meant something to me at the time.

I think Gone is great. I really never understood the hate.

Yeah love it. Now that's a chorus. I love those soaring choruses that Ed writes - In Hiding, Dissdient, Alive, etc. Gets me right there:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Man, I think the initial listens of the songs are just as valid as future listens. Only evaluating a song based on how it plays to you after 1000 listens is cool, but you don't want to discount how the song made you feel initially. Even the greatest songs of all time (like the Stones Gimmie Shelter or something) at some point I'll find myself hitting skip just cause it's not where I am at that moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that a song had tremendous impact on me. My fav record is Vitalogy but I only go back to it a couple times a year at most. That doesn't take away from the fact that I think it's awesome.

Obviously early listens are important, I don't think I disagreed with that. I'm just saying that 20+ years down the line, we're judging songs to be terrible on first listen when we quite likely had the same reaction to various early songs, we just don't remember it.

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Mike wrote:"One definition of a hook is "a musical or lyrical phrase that stands out and is easily remembered".[2] Definitions typically include some of the following: that a hook is repetitive, attention-grabbing, memorable, easy to dance to, and has commercial potential and lyrics."

Is this the definition of hook you guys are using? Eddies vocal melodies are full of hooks on S/T and Backspacer then. It also makes me wonder why anyone would want hooks in Pearl Jam's music. Musical phrases that grow on you a little are so much more powerful and "durable" than phrases that just jump in your face the first time and get stuck in your head even though you don't want that.

Most of PJ's best songs utilize great hooks. Alive, Evenflow, Animal, Rearviewmirror, Betterman, Corduroy, etc. These songs are plenty powerful and have the staying power. The hooks are usually obvious in those songs but in case of a song like Sirens, it's more subtle because there is no obvious sing along part. You won't know what exactly is being repeated until after a few listens. It's a grower. But it is still hooky in a way.

There's nothing wrong with writing great melodies. They don't sing about banging girls or partying. If they did that, I wouldn't want to listen to them.

I agree with everything here. I just don't think most of these songs are full of obvious hooks but rather good melodies that will stay with you. Alive's chorus might be the biggest hook for me here. The thing is that all of Pearl Jam records have memorable songs with good melodies. I'm not sure what I'm exactly talking about. I think I'd rather have these long-lasting melodies that will work again and again rather than hooks that work very well the first view times but lose their impact very quickly and I'm afraid Lightning Bolt might have too many of these easy hooks. Phrases of Sirens, Getaway and Lightning Bolt are stuck in my head all day long and I'm not sure it's the good type of earworm. That never happened to me with Corduroy or Animal or...

I was about to say "Did it not?" But then I remembered it was more often the musical parts that got lodged in my head from those songs. So, Corduroy's amazing bridge, Animal's aggressive intro...

Of course these melodies got burnt into my brain and I can immediately sing them and I love specific parts of these songs. They're all super memorable but I don't involuntarily get them stuck in my head like sugary gum. It's also possible that I just don't remember that because I listened to them 10 years ago for the first time.

I think it's *very* difficult to remember instant reactions from that long ago, or the following weeks and months afterwards. It's even longer for me, and all I remember is that I have found Betterman an annoying earworm sometimes. I think that the more time passes, the more we associate those songs (which may or may not have been ear-worms once) with specific times in our lives. So our emotional attachment is that we associate these songs with memories. The ultimate test of Lightning Bolt will be whether that happens with any of the songs, and we don't know that yet.

Man, I think the initial listens of the songs are just as valid as future listens. Only evaluating a song based on how it plays to you after 1000 listens is cool, but you don't want to discount how the song made you feel initially. Even the greatest songs of all time (like the Stones Gimmie Shelter or something) at some point I'll find myself hitting skip just cause it's not where I am at that moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that a song had tremendous impact on me. My fav record is Vitalogy but I only go back to it a couple times a year at most. That doesn't take away from the fact that I think it's awesome.

Obviously early listens are important, I don't think I disagreed with that. I'm just saying that 20+ years down the line, we're judging songs to be terrible on first listen when we quite likely had the same reaction to various early songs, we just don't remember it.

Read a great interview with Jagger a couple of years ago and he was saying that the Stones new songs don't have the "patina of age" that the rest of their catalogue has, so it is unfair to compare them. A great quote and a good point.

guitar_davey wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:The Big Wave lyrics are terrible. If Lightning Bolt is a song about surfing (which it is, partly) it's miles and miles better than Big Wave. BW is a "You'd get it if you were a surfer" kind of song.

Love Big Wave. It's got a a great tempo and gets the listener rocking out and wanting to go back and hit repeat. You're clearly a stickler for lyrics, I'm only a stickler when the song draws attention to it. Big Wave is more about the melody and pace, and the lyrics supplement just fine w/ nice little rhyming patterns. Great way to move the album forward. Too bad Gone doesn't come through in a stronger way.

I would definitely like BW more with better lyrics. And actually I'm one of the few people on this board who will defend Gone as a good song It meant something to me at the time.

I think Gone is great. I really never understood the hate.

Agree, some of the best lyrics Ed has written, IMO.

The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

He was stoned off his ass when he wrote Unthought Known and he wrote Johnny Guitar on the shitter. And he admitted both of those things. Now that IS honest.

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

Good point...it doesnt bother to me because Ed writes sometimes about other people in first person.
Daughter, for example.

I'm not sure why political or social material is interpreted as "an agenda" and personal-life stuff is considered honest. The personal is political, and I didn't really ever assume "Gone" was about Ed. "...like money in the bank" is a simile.

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

see also: every bruce springsteen song ever written

VinylGuy wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

Good point...it doesnt bother to me because Ed writes sometimes about other people in first person.
Daughter, for example.

Don't call me daughter / I have a penis / Not calling me "son" sexually confuuuuuses me"

harmless wrote:I'm not sure why political or social material is interpreted as "an agenda" and personal-life stuff is considered honest. The personal is political, and I didn't really ever assume "Gone" was about Ed. "...like money in the bank" is a simile.

of course it has an agenda. it is social/political commentary. that is the point!

VinylGuy wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

Good point...it doesnt bother to me because Ed writes sometimes about other people in first person.
Daughter, for example.

Really good songwriters can do that. I don't think about Ed being the person in the song necessarily, but just a storyteller giving a narrative.

For me I love Gone because I think think everybody has has that thought at one time or another of just dropping everything and getting the fuck out of there.

It does a really good job of expressing that feeling.

Django Butterworth wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:The chorus to Gone is good. But, overall, something about Gone always seemed contrived to me... particularly the verses. This ridiculously rich guy is singing about "the gas in his tank, feels like money in the bank?" Seriously? This is one of my issues with a good amount of PJ's songs around the Binaural/Riot Act and even S/T era. I feel like Ed sought to write something on a macro issue, rather than having the song just 'come out' naturally. Contrived is the right word. There are exceptions, of course. But, this is one more reason why I enjoy the recent material - it seems more honest. Unthought Known, Just Breathe, Sirens, Lightning Bolt seem authentic, like they were spurred from real experiences and the writer didn't come in with an agenda of sorts.

Good point...it doesnt bother to me because Ed writes sometimes about other people in first person.
Daughter, for example.

Really good songwriters can do that. I don't think about Ed being the person in the song necessarily, but just a storyteller giving a narrative.

For me I love Gone because I think think everybody has has that thought at one time or another of just dropping everything and getting the fuck out of there.

It does a really good job of expressing that feeling.

Yea, I know I felt it. In summer '06 when gas was as high as it had ever gotten (to that point), the "gas in tank/money in the bank" lyric really hit home.

harmless wrote:I'm not sure why political or social material is interpreted as "an agenda" and personal-life stuff is considered honest. The personal is political, and I didn't really ever assume "Gone" was about Ed. "...like money in the bank" is a simile.

Yeah, its more that its a poor rhyme very early in the song makes it stand out, maybe if they were at a point the song where the momentum carried it... Usually Eddie has nice word play, another great thing about Sleight of Hand...

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm not sure why political or social material is interpreted as "an agenda" and personal-life stuff is considered honest. The personal is political, and I didn't really ever assume "Gone" was about Ed. "...like money in the bank" is a simile.

of course it has an agenda. it is social/political commentary. that is the point!

I'm not saying that's untrue, just that it isn't necessarily any less "honest" than songs about my life. And I really should've written that having an agenda is no bad thing, but people usually use the word negatively. A song with an "agenda" can often be even more personally revealing than an overtly autobiographical one, in my opinion. I really find out very little about Ed in a song like "Just Breathe", but in a song like "Do the Evolution", "Brain of J" or MYM, I learn a lot about what his obsessions are.