Red Mosquito

You know, maybe he is a stupid piece of shit.

I'm racist because I admit ignorance on the subject and am looking for the truth? I never once said anything negative toward any race. You jump to awful conclusions.

Mickey wrote:

Rob wrote:These arguments always go the same way. The person (tree, in this case) simultaneously argues that it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the choices black people make. And even when you point out how ridiculous that is, they don't even flinch.

This is kind of the point that Barbara and Karen Fields make in their book, Racecraft--that any study attempting to prove racial disparity (like "making poor choices" or whatever) has *already* assumed its object by naturalizing the categories of race. It's a good book, the introduction is worth a read.

Barbara and Karen talk race? That sounds like it would be right up tree's alley.

Since you guys refuse to have conversations in good faith and unfairly call me a racist over and over again, this truly is a useless exercise and I should just stay away from this altogether. Have fun with your group-think. /thread

cutuphalfdead wrote:Barbara and Karen talk race? That sounds like it would be right up tree's alley.

Unfortunately for him...

Yeah, i don't listen to people because they're black. You're the racist. Assholes.

It’s very difficult at this point to have an objective discussion using numbers and statistics. A lot of the debate, especially in social media, is just too heated and aggressive. However, I have no problem in believing there is systemic racism in the USA. Hopefully, the right people will be working on how to make it better, but political reform is needed.

tree_ wrote:This is very difficult. I admit that I know nothing. I'm going to keep listening.

That's great. I mean that sincerely.

tree_ wrote:I guess my whole instinct on even talking about this comes from yes, racism exists and it can be hard to prove and accurately locate systemic racism, but is it relatively prevalent and is it improving? People are so outraged by racism and I think they're directing it in the wrong direction. There will always be violence, there will always be racism. What are we going to do about it? Scream at the universe? Can we locate an actual problem and work to fix it specifically? The stats with police violence actually show the odds of being killed by a police officer is virtually on par with being struck by lightning, and skin color doesn't really matter here either. And we get one video so people fill the streets protesting police to stop killing black men. It just doesn't fit. Yes, there needs to be police reform, but not because one black man gets killed. Police kill whites at a higher rate.

In my eternal quest to find common ground, I agree with you that police brutality is actually way down on the list of systemic issues facing black people. (Of course I almost certainly think it's a much bigger problem than you do.) You ask for an actual problem. Well, police brutality/militarization of the police/qualified immunity would seem to be places we could have common ground. Let's start there. People of all races can be safer if we tackle that together. And if it was a video of another black man being murdered by the police that set it in motion, so be it! You're right, white people get brutalized and murdered by police, too.

The thing about your colorblind insistence is that post CRA-1964 era legislation states and the federal government largely moved to sets of colorblind legislation that while ostensibly race-neutral were directly targeted at black and minority communities, but they could do so with the cover, "What do you mean, marijuana is illegal for everybody! So it can't be racist when we just happen to disproportionately enforce laws against minorities even while usage/"offender" rates are often higher in white communities." Charge stacking, bail policies, the myth of the 5th and 6th amendments, the myth of "if you can't afford an attorney one will be provided to you," the myth of the 4th amendment, the way minority communities are policed just to name a few pressing legal issues (just one of many areas of life where black people face systemic challenges).

The main point though is that the shift to colorblindness is that it is one of those things that sounds great if you don't think about it too hard. Laws made that never explicitly mention race = good! And compared to Jim Crow laws, yeah, it's great that we don't have explicitly racist laws anymore. The battle now is against the implicitly racist policies which are far more insidious because it's a lot easier for people to pretend like they aren't there. So everybody can feel good about themselves and how we conquered racism meanwhile we have so many laws and so much selective enforcement of those laws that the end result is mass incarceration of black men, the breakdown of the traditional family unit within black communities, decreased opportunities, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just rambling at this point so I apologize for that. But, man...

A good place for reform would be to ban YouTube.

Thank you, 4/5.

Yes, I admit my ignorance. I'm honestly blurting out my honest perceptions as best I can and trying to learn more. I don't want to be a racist. If I actually am racist, I'm not aware of it, and would like to change. I thought I made all of this clear already. I'm actually open to learning more. Calling me a racist piece of shit actually makes you a piece of shit, I hope you know.

Calling out racism where it exists is the opposite of being a piece of shit.

You've said you're willing to listen and learn. That's a great first step. Do that. And understand that you are racist -- whether that's conscious or intentional or not. You are/have been part of the problem. Just like I am/have been. That's part of what we mean when we talk about privilege and systemic racism. Own it and acknowledge it first and then work your ass off to make changes.

Racist by default. Because I was born with pale skin. Mind-blowing. Do you have a scale? To me, racism is pretty obvious and I haven't committed any racist acts. What scale are you using?

What if I were born into a terrible situation, both my parents died at a young age, brought up through foster care in the worst part of a big city, struggling to make ends meet my entire life. Would I still be racist?

The color of your skin can not make you a racist by itself.

tree_ wrote:Racist by default. Because I was born with pale skin. Mind-blowing. Do you have a scale? To me, racism is pretty obvious and I haven't committed any racist acts. What scale are you using?

"To me" is exactly why you came here, no?

tree_ wrote:What if I were born into a terrible situation, both my parents died at a young age, brought up through foster care in the worst part of a big city, struggling to make ends meet my entire life. Would I still be racist?

You're using narrow metrics on how you chose to define and acknowledge racism, tree. It really feels like you're not even trying to understand what people are saying to you in this thread. Which is fine. You don't have to listen or try to understand. But if that's the case, you should stop insisting otherwise.

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:Racist by default. Because I was born with pale skin. Mind-blowing. Do you have a scale? To me, racism is pretty obvious and I haven't committed any racist acts. What scale are you using?

"To me" is exactly why you came here, no?

So please explain to me how I'm racist. How are you racist? Is Eddie Vedder racist too?

Nothing I say is going to change your mind. You've made that clear. You have to do the work now.

But you called me and yourself racist. I simply want to know what you mean by that. I don't currently think I'm racist. I want your view.