Red Mosquito

digster wrote:I have to admit, I don't really see comparisons between the first three records and the last three. They don't really sound all that similar, and the comparisons of accessibility seem to make sense only in hindsight of the fact that the first records were so big. I mean, PJ's first big single was about a child's suicide, was five minutes long, and half of it was wordless moaning. None of this really screams mainstream radio hit; the fact that it ended up being a hit doesn't really change that. There seems to have been more of an attempt in the past few records to apply mainstream, more pop tropes to their songwriting. I think that's a change from what they've done in the past, including their earliest work.

Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true). I'm not sure the thematic substance of the songs matter. Every rock hit in that era once grunge took off was dark. And the wordless moaning was catchy as hell.

For what it's worth, I think the real key is that the earlier/later songs were generally more extroverted and the 'mid period' ones were more introverted. Those aren't the words I think I've used in the past (hlniv used those terms, I think) but they get to what I see as the key difference.

Since I happen to be a songwriting expert myself, I will say that the melodic underpinning was not stronger. Actually, it was weaker. Like, really fucking shitty underpinning. Worst underpinning I've seen in my entire career.

I'm so into everything Heathen it's sickening.

''By the way, we got news today that the record we put out went to number one I guess. We’ve had a few records like that. It’s been a long time ago. Back then we didn’t really give a shit. Now all these years later we still don’t give a shit. But some of us are dads now and we got kids. We aren’t going to explain to the kids what it means, but were just going to say “your dad is fucking number one and don’t you fucking forget it!”
- Ed, Los Angeles 2009

stip wrote:
Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true). I'm not sure the thematic substance of the songs matter. Every rock hit in that era once grunge took off was dark. And the wordless moaning was catchy as hell.

That's the point I was trying to make; the mountain moved to Mohammed, not the other way around. The fact that the songs became mainstream hits doesn't mean that they were written in the style or format of mainstream hits. It's just that what was popular shifted. That's seemingly different when their recent work, when there seems to have been an effort to incorporate a more mainstream, accessible approach into their songwriting (i.e. trying to write a smash). It's up to each person to decide how successfully they did that, but I think it's a different form of writing.

stip wrote: For what it's worth, I think the real key is that the earlier/later songs were generally more extroverted and the 'mid period' ones were more introverted. Those aren't the words I think I've used in the past (hlniv used those terms, I think) but they get to what I see as the key difference.

I think this is just an eye of the beholder thing; I personally see as little ground between Lightning Bolt and Ten as I do between No Code or Yield and Ten.

I love pearl jam, but the heart is deceitful above all things

12 pages and counting.

with about 9 posts on topic

stip wrote:with about 9 posts on topic

I didnt want to mention it, but yeah.

Least he's not re-recycling that finger picky bit from just breathe and that ITW song again...

dimejinky99 wrote:Least he's not re-recycling that finger picky bit from just breathe and that ITW song again...

not yet at least.

Can i just remind the honourable gentlemen, that ed songs are usually great when he writes them and plays them, then his band get hold of them and screw things up.
Gone, Speed of sound, etc


I wonder how many others we're not aware of..

it's a different sphere, but I wonder if there are radiohead fans that go to their shows and leave disappointed cos they never played fake plastic trees or Just?

assuming radiohead don't play the hits anymore

Release_Me wrote:...since Self-Titled, he's made a stylistic choice to not sing in his comfort zone. He's pushing himself to sing higher, scream more, etc. Even a simple song like Elderly Woman now has him adding high notes which weren't there.

I actually really hate how he does this on so many songs. Frankly, I wish he would stop changing old songs.

i really like the way he took the vocals on this one. its like he took the bridge to unthought known and and the vocals from cold confession and made one song. i really like it on first listen.

digster wrote:I have to admit, I don't really see comparisons between the first three records and the last three. They don't really sound all that similar, and the comparisons of accessibility seem to make sense only in hindsight of the fact that the first records were so big. I mean, PJ's first big single was about a child's suicide, was five minutes long, and half of it was wordless moaning. None of this really screams mainstream radio hit; the fact that it ended up being a hit doesn't really change that. There seems to have been more of an attempt in the past few records to apply mainstream, more pop tropes to their songwriting. I think that's a change from what they've done in the past, including their earliest work.

Agreed, I certainly can't hear much of a common musical thread between songs like Alive or Once (for example) and the material on the last few records.

S/T aside (I still think it has some merit), Backspacer and Lightning Bolt sound like the work of an entirely different band.

Rank the recycled Edward Vedder musical ideas!

Strat wrote:Rank the recycled Edward Vedder musical ideas!

see me feel me touch me heal me

digster wrote:

stip wrote:
Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true). I'm not sure the thematic substance of the songs matter. Every rock hit in that era once grunge took off was dark. And the wordless moaning was catchy as hell.

That's the point I was trying to make; the mountain moved to Mohammed, not the other way around. The fact that the songs became mainstream hits doesn't mean that they were written in the style or format of mainstream hits. It's just that what was popular shifted. That's seemingly different when their recent work, when there seems to have been an effort to incorporate a more mainstream, accessible approach into their songwriting (i.e. trying to write a smash). It's up to each person to decide how successfully they did that, but I think it's a different form of writing.

stip wrote: For what it's worth, I think the real key is that the earlier/later songs were generally more extroverted and the 'mid period' ones were more introverted. Those aren't the words I think I've used in the past (hlniv used those terms, I think) but they get to what I see as the key difference.

I think this is just an eye of the beholder thing; I personally see as little ground between Lightning Bolt and Ten as I do between No Code or Yield and Ten.

The thing is, it was fashionable back then to write dark and moody songs. Jeremy was as accessible a song as any on radio in that era. 5 minute plus songs were not the anomaly they are now. PJ was accused of riding Nirvana's coattails to success and not being alternative enough. They were said to be a classic rock band disguised as a grunge outfit. They were definitely the least grunge of all the big bands. They were the most accessible and secured the most radio hits too.

Comparing songs from that era with LB songs directly is really missing the point. The melodic underpinnings are similar in my opinion and Ed is once again given the canvas to shine, whether you think that's a good idea these days is a separate point. Ed was more on the backburner in the middle records as far as his vocals go. He was also very restrained and not the in your face singer he used to be. He's attempted to be that once more even though there are differences in his voice and the songs themselves like you said.

In my opinion, this is not an effort to unnaturally alter their songwriting to become something they never were. It's just an opposing direction to the middle period where an effort was made to actually be less radio friendly. If anything, that was the drastic shift in this band's career.

This a never-ending debate which can rage on forever but hopefully in another thread. I actually like this song and feel guilty for hijacking it's thread.

Release_me is like a Harmless that doesnt flip flop