Red Mosquito

philpritchard wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.

Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.

Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.

Yeah, but Posey's will be much more impressive when compared to league averages in the years he played. Assuming this pitching era we're in sticks around for a few more years.

cutuphalfdead wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.

Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.

Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.

Yeah, but Posey's will be much more impressive when compared to league averages in the years he played. Assuming this pitching era we're in sticks around for a few more years.

Yeah, but posey has to keep it up for another 8 years.

@SkitchP wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:
Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the hall way over any of the names mentioned here.

Except Trammell, Whitaker and Raines

I meant in my post. My bad haha.

No argument from me about Raines and Tram.

I think Raines should have been in a few years ago. I'm confident he will get in. Probably will take 4-5 more years though. I am hoping he goes in the same year as Pudge and Vlad.

As for Tram I am as stumped as anyone about his absence.

A class next year of Griffey, Piazza, Bagwell and Hoffman would be fun.

MattA75 wrote:How anyone can think Kurt Warner is HOF worthy is beyond me...do they just forget about what he was from about 2003-2006?

And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...

Look at Warner's playoff stats, they're insane. And he took two doormats to SB's that were then awful without him. Most serious football minds think he's an essential HOF player.

Also the "Fame" part of the title is essentially worthless if someone with the story of Warner (along with the stats + wins) isn't inducted. One of the guiding questions they posit is "can you tell the story of the NFL without him?" and you absolutely cannot without Warner. He's one of the most interesting (and IMO, accomplished) players of the last 15 years. To me he should be a no-brainer.

MLB
Schilling - In, no doubt here in my mind. Rising up in the biggest games, a clean pitcher during a dirty era (understanding this is an assumption, not a fact). Success winning in NL and AL. Comes across as a dick, but I worked with him one-on-one at a PR event and he was awesome, agreeable. Family nice, too.

NFL
Warner - Probably in, although when pumping his Super Bowl/post season tires let's not forget the Rams were heavy favorites in that SB loss to NE. Greatest show on turf only won once. Still, going from out of the league, bagging groceries is remarkable. Is his wife still ugly?

Orpheus wrote:

MattA75 wrote:How anyone can think Kurt Warner is HOF worthy is beyond me...do they just forget about what he was from about 2003-2006?

And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...

Look at Warner's playoff stats, they're insane. And he took two doormats to SB's that were then awful without him. Most serious football minds think he's an essential HOF player.

He was 0-6 in 2002 with 3 TDs and 11 picks...Marc freaking Bulger with the same team was 6-1 with 14 TDs and 6 picks

He was then a backup for all of 2003 (what hall of famer is a backup in the middle of their prime???)...again, a backup to Marc freaking Bulger

He then had two mediocre seasons in 2004 and 2005, and then in 2006 he lost his job to Matt freaking Leinart

Then he had 3 more good seasons in Arizona

So essentially, he had 2 stretches where he had 3 good seasons and other than that, frankly, kinda sucked...dude was made by Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald...period

cutuphalfdead wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:No on Piazza, yes on Schilling.

Why not Piazza? He really has no competition in the best offensive catcher ever debate.

Fun fact: Buster Posey is easily the best catcher in the league right now. If he repeats what he has done so far for the rest of his career, without declining as he ages, he'll have a similar career offensive output as Mike Piazza.

Yeah, but Posey's will be much more impressive when compared to league averages in the years he played. Assuming this pitching era we're in sticks around for a few more years.

Without having reached the decline phase of his career, Posey's career wRC+ (which adjusts for park and league and era and everything) is an unheard-of-for-a-catcher 141. Piazza's career mark is 140.

Piazza's career production for his position is something we've literally never seen before.

I just don't see hall of fame when I see Kurt Warner. Amazing rags to riches story....pretty much literally. But I can think of many guys who have been eligible for a long time who deserve it more. Guys like Tim Brown, Kevin Mawae, Jerry Kramer, Steve Atwater, Roger Craig (bit of a homer pick), Will Shields (not a homer pick....one of the best guards of all time), Mick Tingelhoff and Neil Smith are all more deserving.

Orpheus wrote:Also the "Fame" part of the title is essentially worthless if someone with the story of Warner (along with the stats + wins) isn't inducted. One of the guiding questions they posit is "can you tell the story of the NFL without him?" and you absolutely cannot without Warner. He's one of the most interesting (and IMO, accomplished) players of the last 15 years. To me he should be a no-brainer.

But his story is fascinating because he sucked so bad for 4-5 years and then had 3 good years at the end...to me, if you suck for 4-5 years in what should be your prime, you not only are not a hall of famer, you should not even be considered

One bad season out of the ordinary is one thing...4-5 bad seasons where you can't even keep a starting job is entirely another

It's tough to compare sports but Terrell Davis is kind of like Roger Maris and neither belong in the Hall of Fame.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:It's tough to compare sports but Terrell Davis is kind of like Roger Maris and neither belong in the Hall of Fame.

That's an interesting comparison.

MattA75 wrote:

Orpheus wrote:

MattA75 wrote:How anyone can think Kurt Warner is HOF worthy is beyond me...do they just forget about what he was from about 2003-2006?

And I still don't get Biggio in baseball either...

Look at Warner's playoff stats, they're insane. And he took two doormats to SB's that were then awful without him. Most serious football minds think he's an essential HOF player.

He was 0-6 in 2002 with 3 TDs and 11 picks...Marc freaking Bulger with the same team was 6-1 with 14 TDs and 6 picks. He was then a backup for all of 2003 (what hall of famer is a backup in the middle of their prime???)...again, a backup to Marc freaking Bulger.

This was largely due to a broken finger and then a broken hand, which pretty much any QB will struggle with. The Martz system was notorious for getting players hurt due to taking big hits. Also being undrafted means a team will be more willing to move on from you...more on that in a sec.

He then had two mediocre seasons in 2004 and 2005, and then in 2006 he lost his job to Matt freaking Leinart

He did lose his job to Matt Leinart, who was terrible, and he would often have to bail out in relief appearances. There are several games where they pulled Leinart/he got hurt and Warner came in and almost won or did win the game. Leinart is recognized now as a terrible QB who never should have been a 1st round pick, but we all know that 1st round picks get many more chances than undrafted players (just look at guys like Vernon Gholston and Darius Heyward-Bey). Warner should be penalized for the Cardinals FO drafting a horrible QB too early and then giving him too many chances? Would anyone ever argue that Leinart was even in the same league as Warner as a player? I don't think so.

Then he had 3 more good seasons in Arizona

Three more awesome seasons where he and the offense were pretty much the whole reason the team had success. The Cardinals SB team is one of the worst to ever make it to the big game in Football Outsiders ratings, and the next season he outplayed Aaron fucking Rodgers in a game in which he threw more TDs than incompletions. His season/career was ended by a Saints team that was found to be actively attempting to injure other players. He was beaten to shit and still made a valiant effort in that game, much as he did his entire career.

So essentially, he had 2 stretches where he had 3 good seasons and other than that, frankly, kinda sucked...dude was made by Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald...period

Once again, six "good" seasons is a bit of a massive understatement. And I despise your 2nd argument, it's one of the laziest in all of sports. EVERY good QB has had a great supporting cast. No one dings Manning for playing with Faulk, Edge, Harrison, Wayne, and Clark. No one dings Brady for putting up video game numbers with Randy Fucking Moss and the greatest slot WR of all time, then seamlessly transitioning to arguably the two biggest matchup nightmares at TE ever assembled because he has a genius front office that is always two steps ahead. No one dings Montana for playing with the greatest WR and offensive coach of all time. "They made those guys better." Warner made his guys better too. They have never looked as good as when he played with them. Fitzgerald has spent years wasting away with nothing QBs in his prime. It is a bullshit, lazy argument.

We are incredibly spoiled by QB play in this era. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger will all go down as some of the greatest players to ever play the position. Not having your career arc be as good as those guys is entirely normal as they are stratospheric talents. They are all outliers--not the norm.

Kurt Warner:

Spoiler: show

Most yards passing in a Super Bowl game – 414 yards (against Tennessee Titans)[56][57]
Three highest passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history: Warner also owns the 2nd highest (377 yards against Pittsburgh in Super Bowl XLIII) and 3rd highest (365 yards against New England in Super Bowl XXXVI) passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history.[58]
Only quarterback to throw 400+ yards in a Super Bowl game
Most touchdown passes in a single postseason – 11 touchdowns (in 2009, tied with Joe Montana in 1990 and Joe Flacco in 2013)
Most yards passing in a single postseason, 3 games played – 1,063 yards (in 1999)
Highest completion percentage in a single game (regular season)(min 20 attempts) – 92.3% (24/26) (9/20/09) [59] (Highest single game completion percentage – Tom Brady 92.9% (26/28) (1/12/08))[60]
Highest rate of games with 300+ yards passing (min. 100 games played) – 41.9% (52/124)[61]
Most career games with a perfect passer rating (regular season) – 3 games (tied with Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger)[62]
Fastest player to pass for 30,000 yards – 114 games (tied with Dan Marino)
Fastest player to pass for 10,000 yards[63]
Only quarterback to throw for over 14,000 yards with two different teams (St. Louis Rams and Arizona Cardinals)
Only quarterback to throw 40 touchdowns and win a Super Bowl in the same season (in 1999)
Most yards passing in the first four games of a season – 1557 yards (2000)[64]
Most yards passing in the first five games of a season – 1947 yards (2000)[65]
Most yards passing in the first six games of a season – 2260 yards (2000)[66]
Highest average passing yards per game on Monday Night Football – 329.4 yards (min 7 games)
Warner shares several records:

One of 2 quarterbacks to throw 100 touchdown passes with two different teams (following Fran Tarkenton)
One of 2 quarterbacks Tied to throw 5 touchdown passes in two different playoff games – (following Daryle Lamonica)
One of 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Tom Brady)[67]
One of 2 quarterbacks with 4 consecutive games with a passer rating over 120 (in 2009, tied with Johnny Unitas)
One of 3 quarterbacks to make Super Bowl starts with two different teams – (with Craig Morton – Dallas Cowboys (in 1970) and Denver Broncos (in 1977) and Peyton Manning - Indianapolis Colts (in 2006 and 2009) and Denver Broncos (in 2013))
One of 4 quarterbacks to win a Conference championship with two different teams (with Craig Morton and Earl Morrall and Peyton Manning)
Warner also ranks second in several categories:

2nd highest career completion percentage (Min. 1500 attempts) – 65.5 (Chad Pennington, 66.0)
2nd highest career passing yards per game (Min. 100 games) – 260.4 yards/game (Peyton Manning is first)[68]
2nd highest career passing yards in Super Bowl history – 1,156 yards (Tom Brady, 1,277 yards)
2nd highest career completion percentage, playoffs – 66.5 (Drew Brees, 66.7)
2nd oldest quarterback to throw for 30 touchdowns in a season – aged 37 (in 2008) (Brett Favre, aged 40 (in 2009))

He absolutely should be in the Hall of Fame.

I'm on the fence about Warner, but Orph's argument kinda makes it seem like he should be a hall of famer based on 4 really good games.

@SkitchP wrote:I'm on the fence about Warner, but Orph's argument kinda makes it seem like he should be a hall of famer based on 4 really good games.

That's what you got out of it? I am honestly flabbergasted by how people regard Warner.

I am pro-Warner before and definitely after that post.

Another good read: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-a ... -fame-case

Orpheus wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:I'm on the fence about Warner, but Orph's argument kinda makes it seem like he should be a hall of famer based on 4 really good games.

That's what you got out of it? I am honestly flabbergasted by how people regard Warner.

I don't! your post just kinda kept bringing up playoff stats.

I mean...they're kind of a big deal.

Orpheus wrote:I mean...they're kind of a big deal.

So do you think Big Ben and Eli Manning are headed for the Hall of Fame?