Red Mosquito

If Bernie wins this whole election I will owe you a big you told me so.

In the interim, I don’t think the public will choose the populist they don’t know against the one they do (even if they don’t like him).

I don’t think you have to kowtow, but i think the message needs to be palatable. The current state of promising more brow beating and vicious attacks is not going to wake people to Bernie’s movement, it’s going to turn them away. Also, what’s democratic (small d) about this idea that Bernie is going to swoop into office and change everything on some popular movement that we already know isn’t going to bring in such a massive majority that he’ll have a mandate to completely neglect all checks and balances and rule the country with a frumpy suit?

This no retreat, no surrender mind frame isn’t going to cut it in office.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

And that’s your worldview. Cool. I’m not talking about worldviews. I’m pointing out the fact that those expressions and attitudes are diametrically opposed to any effort you might make to build a coalition that can win a primary and an election.

You’ll never enact the policy platform you claim to want without bringing other people into the tent. All this “fuck off” stuff does is help you feel righteous. And as someone else who wants the agenda espoused by Sanders to thrive, it saddens me to watch his followers waste time trying to berate and threaten their way to the presidency, because it’s as despicable to me as it is ineffective.

Well, I think you’re wrong. And I don’t think you pull new people in by kowtowing to centrism.

I don’t either. No Democrat will ever get credit for centrism once the general starts, anyway. But I don’t think those are the only two options. It’s like saying your best two plans to get an increase in your allowance are to join the seminary or punch your mom in the tits.

McParadigm wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

And that’s your worldview. Cool. I’m not talking about worldviews. I’m pointing out the fact that those expressions and attitudes are diametrically opposed to any effort you might make to build a coalition that can win a primary and an election.

You’ll never enact the policy platform you claim to want without bringing other people into the tent. All this “fuck off” stuff does is help you feel righteous. And as someone else who wants the agenda espoused by Sanders to thrive, it saddens me to watch his followers waste time trying to berate and threaten their way to the presidency, because it’s as despicable to me as it is ineffective.

Well, I think you’re wrong. And I don’t think you pull new people in by kowtowing to centrism.

I don’t either. No Democrat will ever get credit for centrism once the general starts, anyway. But I don’t think those are the only two options. It’s like saying your best two plans to get an increase in your allowance are to join the seminary or punch your mom in the tits.

Neither works.

Source: I read Hamlet but didn't really pay attention.

McParadigm wrote:get an increase in your allowance are to join the seminary or punch your mom in the tits.

Not to veer off topic, but I imagine these will be the two major reactions when die hard Pearl Jam fans hear the new single tonight at midnight.

McParadigm wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Yeah. I’m not a democrat. I don’t believe in the party’s politics at all. The society they have stewarded for people in my generation and below is fucking grim. Why on earth would I vote for one of them? A “return to normalcy” dem presidency would be the absolute worst outcome of the Trump disruption.

And that’s your worldview. Cool. I’m not talking about worldviews. I’m pointing out the fact that those expressions and attitudes are diametrically opposed to any effort you might make to build a coalition that can win a primary and an election.

You’ll never enact the policy platform you claim to want without bringing other people into the tent. All this “fuck off” stuff does is help you feel righteous. And as someone else who wants the agenda espoused by Sanders to thrive, it saddens me to watch his followers waste time trying to berate and threaten their way to the presidency, because it’s as despicable to me as it is ineffective.

This is such a ridiculous take.

Also, I think we should clarify what “all this fuck off stuff” is referring to. Who is telling whom to fuck off, exactly? If we’re talking about the tactics of Sanders supporters, I don’t really care.

And if you didn’t learn from 2016 that good manners get you nowhere in politics, I don’t know what to tell you.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Also, I think we should clarify what “all this fuck off stuff” is referring to. Who is telling whom to fuck off, exactly? If we’re talking about the tactics of Sanders supporters, I don’t really care.

It's a perception largely created by the media, and the crowd that still views our institutions as authorities can't help but accept that narrative.

I agree with Jordan mostly but saying anyone besides Trump getting elected in November would be the worst outcome of the Trump presidency is.... INCORRECT

my god we're doomed with 4 more years of trump arent we

It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

JuanHamm wrote:It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

They absolutely would. Trump isn’t a threat to their values.

Strat wrote:my god we're doomed with 4 more years of trump arent we

relax. Candidates and their supporters are supposed to fight each other in primaries. Some dems act like everyone can be a winner. You have to actually pick someone to win at some point.

Do people really think that voters want to see a bunch of politicians standing onstage shaking hands and telling everyone how they are all such great friends? That shows a profound misunderstanding of the times.

This utter terror that Trump has instilled in democrats is beyond ridiculous. People have short memories. No doubt like every election in history, the partisans will rally around their team in the end, and if they don't, then that shows a catastrophic failure of message, not a result of infighting.

You can build unity in other ways besides compromise or cordiality. Trump did it just a few years ago. There seems to be a psychological blind spot that leaves many pragmatic dems and centrists completely unable to understand how that's possible.

right now this is looking to me a lot like the GOP will win bc they are united around one cause (supporting the interests of the wealthy) whereas the democrats can’t unite around anyone thing or person and instead will fatally damage themselves arguing about how many angels are dancing on a pin

JuanHamm wrote:It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

I think the last few pages have shown that’s backwards, Bernie cultists would help elect Trump again (like they did 2016) before supporting anyone else.

Bi_3 wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

I think the last few pages have shown that’s backwards, Bernie cultists would help elect Trump again (like they did 2016) before supporting anyone else.

The second Bernie conceded the nomination he went to work campaigning for Hillary. It's not his fault that she's completely uninspiring and unlikable.

BTW Mickey needs to be unbanned.

Bi_3 wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

I think the last few pages have shown that’s backwards, Bernie cultists would help elect Trump again (like they did 2016) before supporting anyone else.

It’s amazing that shortly after the election, basically everyone conceded that Hillary was a very flawed candidate, one of the most disliked ever, yet these arguments persist. Bernie played to win in 2016, like she did in 2008. He worked harder than she did for the eventual nominee. But because she couldn’t bring it home... it’s Bernie’s fault. So yea, there is a cult like element on the left that loves Bernie, and will annoy you on Twitter. And then there’s an anti-Bernie force with actual influence. JuanHamm was right.

Edit : JuanHamm’s statement is a bit broad, so I’d say “some” democrats.

Hillary was a flawed candidate, and that flaw that was fatal was that she has been a lightning rod for Republicans because of the last name Clinton. She was going to inspire a boat load of polarizing and enthusiastic voters against her no matter what she said or did. That she won the popular vote by 3 million votes and lost anyway is often forgotten in all this. A highly despised Democrat still nearly won that year (electoral college speaking at least) and had a fairly decent spread on the popular vote. We’ll see how Americans feel having experienced the last 4 years with a candidate that doesn’t inspire so much republican vitriol.

Bi_3 wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:It seems like the Democrats would prefer that to Bernie.

I think the last few pages have shown that’s backwards, Bernie cultists would help elect Trump again (like they did 2016) before supporting anyone else.

So many erroneous assumptions in this post, mainly that:

1. Supporting Bernie means you’re a democrat, and therefore that you would/should support other democratic candidates if Bernie isn’t nominated

2. Support for Bernie is somehow about him as a political personality, and not about him being the only genuine leftist in the race