Red Mosquito

harmless wrote:Was Pearl Jam's music ever 'art'?

Manny Manner wrote:Let me preface what I say with this- I have been a Pearl Jam fan since the very beginning. I've grown up with them and will always feel some level of sentiment in regards to their work. Their songs are ingrained in my consciousness and I'm sure I'll continue to revisit their work as I grow old.

That said, I am hugely disappointed with what I've heard off Lightning Bolt thus far. I've really tried to hang in there the last few records, but I think this is the end of the line for me. Somewhere around the Blue album it seems like their creative flame dimmed considerably. They seem to just be playing it by the numbers at this juncture. While they appear to cater to their fan base I can't help but feel they've stopped challenging their fan base, and themselves for that matter. The new stuff sounds so bland, sterile, and uninspired.

It bothers me a bit that they've become so media friendly and such critical darlings. In my estimation they have become a BRAND and ceased being a BAND. They've built up a lot of brand loyalty over the years and I think this is the reason they continue to get a pass (by the fans, by the critics, by the media). People are loyal to and blinded by the PJ institution. I just can't find the artistic merit in their work. The muse seems to have departed. What they've released over the past 6-7 years is product, but its not art.

As I mentioned previously, Pearl Jam will always have a place in my heart and its remarkable how long they've hung in there- but Lightning Bolt is the end of the line for me (for now). They could always win me back somewhere down the line, but this is the first record I don't feel obliged to purchase.

harmless wrote:I'm just referring to this, the idea that PJ was 'art' and now it's just 'product'. PJ were billionaires throughout Binaural and Riot Act, yes? So PJ music was always 'product' as much as it was 'art'. I totally get the by-the-numbers criticism. PJ are not making music with anything like the thought they used to, but maybe you can expect that from most artists at their age. There are exceptions, and it's a shame PJ are showing no sign of wanting to join them, but eh.

Mirella wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm just referring to this, the idea that PJ was 'art' and now it's just 'product'. PJ were billionaires throughout Binaural and Riot Act, yes? So PJ music was always 'product' as much as it was 'art'. I totally get the by-the-numbers criticism. PJ are not making music with anything like the thought they used to, but maybe you can expect that from most artists at their age. There are exceptions, and it's a shame PJ are showing no sign of wanting to join them, but eh.

They have got their own way to relate .
I agree, they could talk with some artists that have pretty strong opinions about music and music business, like Serj Tankian, Trent Reznor, or Tom Morello. Or even their own heroes like Ian McKay. And to a certain extend Henry Rollins. But I don't think their 'business' attitude affects the music in a negative way. At least at live shows they work hard and give 100%, without it looking like 'just' work.

groetjes,
Mirella

harmless wrote:

Mirella wrote:

harmless wrote:I'm just referring to this, the idea that PJ was 'art' and now it's just 'product'. PJ were billionaires throughout Binaural and Riot Act, yes? So PJ music was always 'product' as much as it was 'art'. I totally get the by-the-numbers criticism. PJ are not making music with anything like the thought they used to, but maybe you can expect that from most artists at their age. There are exceptions, and it's a shame PJ are showing no sign of wanting to join them, but eh.

They have got their own way to relate .
I agree, they could talk with some artists that have pretty strong opinions about music and music business, like Serj Tankian, Trent Reznor, or Tom Morello. Or even their own heroes like Ian McKay. And to a certain extend Henry Rollins. But I don't think their 'business' attitude affects the music in a negative way. At least at live shows they work hard and give 100%, without it looking like 'just' work.

groetjes,
Mirella

This is true. As they get older I wish I could be more into the live side of things, since I know that's their priority. But I'm from the UK so hardly ever get to see them, and even when they visit, I can't really afford it. So I continue to hope they'll carry on making interesting records. S/T and Backspacer are patchy to me. I have hopes that Lightning Bolt will be more interesting.

Manny Manner wrote:Let me preface what I say with this- I have been a Pearl Jam fan since the very beginning. I've grown up with them and will always feel some level of sentiment in regards to their work. Their songs are ingrained in my consciousness and I'm sure I'll continue to revisit their work as I grow old.

That said, I am hugely disappointed with what I've heard off Lightning Bolt thus far. I've really tried to hang in there the last few records, but I think this is the end of the line for me. Somewhere around the Blue album it seems like their creative flame dimmed considerably. They seem to just be playing it by the numbers at this juncture. While they appear to cater to their fan base I can't help but feel they've stopped challenging their fan base, and themselves for that matter. The new stuff sounds so bland, sterile, and uninspired.

It bothers me a bit that they've become so media friendly and such critical darlings. In my estimation they have become a BRAND and ceased being a BAND. They've built up a lot of brand loyalty over the years and I think this is the reason they continue to get a pass (by the fans, by the critics, by the media). People are loyal to and blinded by the PJ institution. I just can't find the artistic merit in their work. The muse seems to have departed. What they've released over the past 6-7 years is product, but its not art.

As I mentioned previously, Pearl Jam will always have a place in my heart and its remarkable how long they've hung in there- but Lightning Bolt is the end of the line for me (for now). They could always win me back somewhere down the line, but this is the first record I don't feel obliged to purchase.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

Manny Manner wrote:Let me preface what I say with this- I have been a Pearl Jam fan since the very beginning. I've grown up with them and will always feel some level of sentiment in regards to their work. Their songs are ingrained in my consciousness and I'm sure I'll continue to revisit their work as I grow old.

That said, I am hugely disappointed with what I've heard off Lightning Bolt thus far. I've really tried to hang in there the last few records, but I think this is the end of the line for me. Somewhere around the Blue album it seems like their creative flame dimmed considerably. They seem to just be playing it by the numbers at this juncture. While they appear to cater to their fan base I can't help but feel they've stopped challenging their fan base, and themselves for that matter. The new stuff sounds so bland, sterile, and uninspired.

It bothers me a bit that they've become so media friendly and such critical darlings. In my estimation they have become a BRAND and ceased being a BAND. They've built up a lot of brand loyalty over the years and I think this is the reason they continue to get a pass (by the fans, by the critics, by the media). People are loyal to and blinded by the PJ institution. I just can't find the artistic merit in their work. The muse seems to have departed. What they've released over the past 6-7 years is product, but its not art.

As I mentioned previously, Pearl Jam will always have a place in my heart and its remarkable how long they've hung in there- but Lightning Bolt is the end of the line for me (for now). They could always win me back somewhere down the line, but this is the first record I don't feel obliged to purchase.

I appreciate you sharing your penetrating insight. It's always useful to know that when I like new material it is because I am blinded by my loyalty to the institution of pearljam. For a second I thought it was because the music was really good, but it's always useful to know that I like what I do because I'm a sheep. Takes away the need to think.

I also admire, as a long term fan, your ability to write off an album as crap when you've only heard half of it. The decline of your fandom is all the more tragic knowing you walked out halfway through the movie.

Welcome to the board

stip wrote:i just hate when people decide that, because they don't like something, anyone who does must be stupid.

those kids are just idiots (not for finding the older movies dated or boring, but for thinking that the newer films are in any way superior. Maybe none of them are worthwhile, but I just can't even begin to envision how the later wold be preferable to anyone

harmless wrote:I do hate the attitude that if you like or dislike something, you're not listening properly.

ABNorman wrote:

harmless wrote:I do hate the attitude that if you like or dislike something, you're not listening properly.

FTFY

harmless wrote:I won't try to take anyone's understandable disappointment away from them, but I do hate the attitude that if you like something, you're not listening properly. Maybe it's just that you can appreciate different things for different reasons, or even while acknowledging the problems with it.